Spring Rate Time....Gabe whre you at?? lol

[SlowCivicHmm]

Gabe brought something up last night that's been in my mind.....Look @ my "Flush" thread if needed....



Anywho, what spring rate do you guys run??


Looking more for track queens that are only for track, not street cars......


Gabe/Phil/Simon/Eric........ UMS?? I know you guys have set up a few cars.....



History:

My EG has been in 1st Gen Tein SS for a DC - 8k/6k Rates...




What should I move on too....STIFF don't scare me...

[mixedCRX]

I'm interested in this as well i've started doing more road course/ autocross but right now im on omni drag coilovers. I'm thinking of koni yellows with springs and i know nothing of spring rates.

[SlowCivicHmm]

I love my 8k/6k, but ready to go FULL track set up....and with the wide ass tires/rims I'm going to sport......Gabe said rears 18k.........


I need to double up!!! so curious what they run........

[mixedCRX]

huh... well with my current setup im having over steer issues really bad, to the point to where if im hard into a corner and let off the gas the back end will kick out

here's a video of me autocrossing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9I_D3xFHQ

[SlowCivicHmm]

drag coils are soft in the front and stiff in the rear right??? Hows it feel on track?? sway bars?? maybe you can swap rates....front to rear/rear to front.....I believe Ravi here did that on his DC..



I'm changing my complete set up!!!! tires/brakes/coils/etc etc......even adding a cage and dropping more weight....

I wanna see what rate I should start at now, 8k/6k won't cut it!!

[LoooseGSR]

Joser,

Your spring rates can depend on a lot of differen things, there is no one setup that works regardless. Things to be considered other than wheel/tire combo is sway bars, weight of car w/ driver, as well as bushings(stock, spherical, hard rubber?)

From what I recall I'm seeing more and more people run with a HIGHER rate up front than I'm used to in the past, I know Phil does, be he's running 15x9 up front and 15x8 in the rear, I still think with a matching F/R size/width you can still rung a higher rate in the rear.

HC guys are typically in the 600-800 Front with a 800-1000 lb rear depending, but that's on the stiff end.

I ran 7k f and 10k r on my GSR back in the day, and my TEIN HA's are running similar rates now on my EJ. Hit me up on AIM if you have other questions Joser. I'm always up to chat about setup.

[SlowCivicHmm]

no AIM, only yahoo or FB...lol

15x8 front -5mm, and 15x8 +10mm rear.........22mm rear sway, 24mm front sway bar, all poly stuff......225/50/15


I took off my SS so I'm just missing the coils....


And I understand about the 1 specific rate....but I wanna see what everyone else is using, and opinions, to get a baseline on how high to go....

PS: lbs?? in K please...LOL I hate math...

[mixedCRX]

i just put new brakes on and my car with me is ~2250lbs, i have a stock sway in the front and no sway in the rear, i have no strut tower bars and i have a bushing kit for my front LCA's and sway bar, and my rims are 15x7" +38

i might do the spring swap because it makes sense and might work better till i get new suspension but i still dont know why i over steer so much

maybe i need more instruction, do you have any other thoughts?

[LoooseGSR]

i just put new brakes on and my car with me is ~2250lbs, i have a stock sway in the front and no sway in the rear, i have no strut tower bars and i have a bushing kit for my front LCA's and sway bar, and my rims are 15x7" +38

i might do the spring swap because it makes sense and might work better till i get new suspension but i still dont know why i over steer so much

maybe i need more instruction, do you have any other thoughts?

Instruction can help, and I'm available:-)

In all honesty guys MOST off the shelf coilovers are going to do just fine for what we do, I'd personally recommend getting at least a 450/650 setup to start, and work your way up from there. If the car is track only then get whatever your tail bone can handle. Just remember if your car has sway bars you may not need as high of a spring rate as you would if you didn't.

IIRC, WC Cars that my buddy used to run had something like a 1400 lb rear springs, but they ran NO sway bars at all.

Joser, you may want to just throw some of your own ideas out there and see what kind of feedback you get. You've been doing this long enough to know what you like.

If you want to speak to an expert, call up Koni USA and speak w/ Lee Grimes...He's a member on another board I'm on and he's a good resource.

[mixedCRX]

Instruction can help, and I'm available:-)

In all honesty guys MOST off the shelf coilovers are going to do just fine for what we do, I'd personally recommend getting at least a 450/650 setup to start, and work your way up from there. If the car is track only then get whatever your tail bone can handle. Just remember if your car has sway bars you may not need as high of a spring rate as you would if you didn't.

IIRC, WC Cars that my buddy used to run had something like a 1400 lb rear springs, but they ran NO sway bars at all.

Joser, you may want to just throw some of your own ideas out there and see what kind of feedback you get. You've been doing this long enough to know what you like.

If you want to speak to an expert, call up Koni USA and speak w/ Lee Grimes...He's a member on another board I'm on and he's a good resource.

awesome! once i get my breather box problem figured out i want to start in HPDE1 ASAP are you a instructor for that?

i was looking at spring choices and everywhere i see doesn't offer springs like that. would i have to custom order springs to get those rates?

[INTEGRA DC2]

what sway bars will you be running Joser? i am running 10k and 12k on my daily and it feels great, the track car i going to be running 12 and 16k springs with a ITR front sway and a ASR 24mm rear bar. should be a good setup. Just play with rates and you will find what you like best

[SlowCivicHmm]

no AIM, only yahoo or FB...lol

15x8 front -5mm, and 15x8 +10mm rear.........22mm rear sway, 24mm front sway bar, all poly stuff......225/50/15

I took off my SS so I'm just missing the coils....


And I understand about the 1 specific rate....but I wanna see what everyone else is using, and opinions, to get a baseline on how high to go....

PS: lbs?? in K please...LOL I hate math...

I'm keeping my Progress 22mm rear sway, and my GSR 24mm front sway w/all poly..


what sway bars will you be running Joser? i am running 10k and 12k on my daily and it feels great, the track car i going to be running 12 and 16k springs with a ITR front sway and a ASR 24mm rear bar. should be a good setup. Just play with rates and you will find what you like best


See above ^^^

I was planning on running something right out the box...but then started thinking I'd custom order whatever I get..

I was thinking 12k front and 14k rear honestly, but after talking to gabe about my tire and what not....he said a previous HC car had 18k rear and rubbed.......


I might look into getting a 3 away adjustable rear sway bar, and LCA's.....adjust to my liking...


So we have a 12k/16k trooper here......

my 8k/6k is not stiff at all for the street....and for a street/track car it was perfect!!! I'd still street 10k/12k.......with a 16k rear yeah NO STREET!!

[mixedCRX]

So if I was looking at doing 400lbs/600lbs would I have to do a custom order as well?

[LoooseGSR]

So if I was looking at doing 400lbs/600lbs would I have to do a custom order as well?

You shouldn't, I believe most shocks are good to 600 lbs/in spring rate

Also keep in mind that the higher spring rate, the less camber you want to run

And yes I am an instructor for HPDE 1, I have been for the last 6 years.

[mixedCRX]

You shouldn't, I believe most shocks are good to 600 lbs/in spring rate

Also keep in mind that the higher spring rate, the less camber you want to run

And yes I am an instructor for HPDE 1, I have been for the last 6 years.

ok so i will let you know when im going to be attending my first event with NASA and i know i need more camber in the rear because i have none at the moment lol

[Dead Bird]

Got this in a PM when I was discussing this with them last year:
I ran 18k front and 13k rear on my RR set up

2000 4 door teg used at the track ALOT;)


I'm pretty sure KSport sends out their off the shelf sets at 10k/6k. So if you've ever driven a track car with them and liked the way they feel on the track, that's more than likely what they're rated at(don't count tage's, his are super custom now)

[SlowCivicHmm]

I loved driving jeremy's DB....felt good with the charger on there...even at slow sleeps on PIR!!!

Thats good info right there ^^^^^



Didn't Tage win last years SLB with off the shelve Ksports????

and are you speaking of Kontrol pro's or the RR's??

[Dead Bird]

I don't have the PM from him anymore, but I'm pretty sure he told me he was running off the shelf Kontrol Pro's with a little stiffer valving, which i thought is was made the RR different from the Pro's, but my memory isn't the greatest. I think he and Ksport wanted to run the off the shelf models to show what they could do, and then later on they were going to start messing with the spring rates. Again, memory isn't the greatest

[topramn]

Got this in a PM when I was discussing this with them last year:



I'm pretty sure KSport sends out their off the shelf sets at 10k/6k. So if you've ever driven a track car with them and liked the way they feel on the track, that's more than likely what they're rated at(don't count tage's, his are super custom now)

When I worked at KSport (3+ years ago), the kits were 8k/6k untouched. Now, the EG/DC kit is issued as a 10/6 but you can request an adjusted package prior to installment.

Although never driving on track, I am pretty involved and Justin "looosegsr" makes a good point that there is no perfect setup. Cars react differently based on all of the elements from weights to bushings, tires, camber, and toe. Depending on where you go and what coilover you run, replacement (stiffer/softer) springs I think are as cheap as $15 bucks a piece. Pick up a few different sets and try out some different setups until you think it is right for you.

As for calling Lee, my only thing about that is I remember him once saying there is no alternative to the koni/ground control setup but Tage Evanson who is a proven Time Attack champion and forum member here once thought the same thing and is now on KSports and turning faster times. While I dont doubt that the Koni/GC set up is good, I dont think it is the best for track conditions like many believe.

[BlueTeg]

Gabe said rears 18k.........


I never said that. I said that's what Danny had on that old HC del sol.


I ran Koni Yellows w/ Skunk2 springs (10k F, 8k R) & adj perches, basically from my first track day ever (2004) up until this summer. I liked that setup, it was very easy to drive.

I switched to Ksport Kontorls earlier this year w/ custom spring rates (13k F, 10k R) and the difference on track was immediate! The car transitions way faster through the corners now. Alot of that has to do with the stiffer spring rates. At this spring rate, their Kontrol shocks still feel well matched for the increase in spring rate. I like front heavy setups, so take that for what it's worth.
I would recommend that whatever brand you go with, that you not go with an off the shelf, street oriented coilover since you're using the car first and foremost as a track car. These, like my old Koni/Skunk2, or the Koni/GC, setup are meant for comfort on the street first primarily w/ the versatility of going to the track or AX.

The Ksports are tough to beat because I think they're every bit as good as the other popular brands, at a fraction of the price. (UMS and Tri-Tech both get pretty good pricing on the Ksports) I also like that Ksport's local and if need a damper rebuilt I can drive my happy ass down to their facility and drop it off, rather than have to ship it and wait who knows how long to have it reconditioned.

As for rates, there is no 'right' spring rate. IMO for you to transition to a really stiff setup, especialy one that's stiffer in the rear, is going to be harder for you to dial in. I think starting out with something slightly more aggressive than an off the shelf rate would be a good starting point. Drive on it for awhile (at least a year so you can test at all the tracks that you'll be driving on), see what alignment settings work best for your driving style and then if you still want more rate (front or rear), make the change.

I think Simon has changed springs/shocks a few times. I think he would be a good resource for you too. He really had that Integra turning some fast times for the small amount of power it was putting out.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Long story short about my spring rate-o-rama:

started with 8K/6K and no sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (used to running no sway bars on my 91 hatch)

then 8K/4K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (fun)

then 8K/6K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (funner) [setup Gabe drove, thumbs up]

then 10K/8K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (same fun)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +35 15x7's (more funner)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (MORE funner) [setup Tage drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (funner but looser) [setup Phil drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +36 15x8 front /+42 15x7.5 rear
(with wider wheels and stagger setup I should have put the 24mm front bar back on, too much rollover in the front and instability all-around)

New car is going to be: 12K/14K and 24mm/25.4mm with 225 NT-01's and 15x8's

[TTM_SALES]

We run a Ksport 14k front, 10k rear with No swaybars on a Ek Cx model. Works GREAT on the track.

[SlowCivicHmm]

I never said that. I said that's what Danny had on that old HC del sol.


I ran Koni Yellows w/ Skunk2 springs (10k F, 8k R) & adj perches, basically from my first track day ever (2004) up until this summer. I liked that setup, it was very easy to drive.

I switched to Ksport Kontorls earlier this year w/ custom spring rates (13k F, 10k R) and the difference on track was immediate! The car transitions way faster through the corners now. Alot of that has to do with the stiffer spring rates. At this spring rate, their Kontrol shocks still feel well matched for the increase in spring rate. I like front heavy setups, so take that for what it's worth.
I would recommend that whatever brand you go with, that you not go with an off the shelf, street oriented coilover since you're using the car first and foremost as a track car. These, like my old Koni/Skunk2, or the Koni/GC, setup are meant for comfort on the street first primarily w/ the versatility of going to the track or AX.

The Ksports are tough to beat because I think they're every bit as good as the other popular brands, at a fraction of the price. (UMS and Tri-Tech both get pretty good pricing on the Ksports) I also like that Ksport's local and if need a damper rebuilt I can drive my happy ass down to their facility and drop it off, rather than have to ship it and wait who knows how long to have it reconditioned.

As for rates, there is no 'right' spring rate. IMO for you to transition to a really stiff setup, especialy one that's stiffer in the rear, is going to be harder for you to dial in. I think starting out with something slightly more aggressive than an off the shelf rate would be a good starting point. Drive on it for awhile (at least a year so you can test at all the tracks that you'll be driving on), see what alignment settings work best for your driving style and then if you still want more rate (front or rear), make the change.

I think Simon has changed springs/shocks a few times. I think he would be a good resource for you too. He really had that Integra turning some fast times for the small amount of power it was putting out.

Thx brotha.....and didn't mean to put words in your mouth......I know what you meant.....and I was merely saying you brought up 18k rears.....and its the 1st time I hear of something that stiff in the rear vs the front...unless Danny had 24k fronts...lol

that 18k mention, made me question....that is all brotha......the intrawebz is hard to interpret..

[mixedCRX]

Long story short about my spring rate-o-rama:

started with 8K/6K and no sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (used to running no sway bars on my 91 hatch)

then 8K/4K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (fun)

then 8K/6K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (funner) [setup Gabe drove, thumbs up]

then 10K/8K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (same fun)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +35 15x7's (more funner)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (MORE funner) [setup Tage drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (funner but looser) [setup Phil drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +36 15x8 front /+42 15x7.5 rear
(with wider wheels and stagger setup I should have put the 24mm front bar back on, too much rollover in the front and instability all-around)

New car is going to be: 12K/14K and 24mm/25.4mm with 225 NT-01's and 15x8's



what struts were you running?

[LoooseGSR]

Tein HA's, same as me

[SlowCivicHmm]

Long story short about my spring rate-o-rama:

started with 8K/6K and no sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (used to running no sway bars on my 91 hatch)

then 8K/4K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +42 15x7's (fun)

then 8K/6K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (funner) [setup Gabe drove, thumbs up]

then 10K/8K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (same fun)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +35 15x7's (more funner)

then 12K/10K with 24mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (MORE funner) [setup Tage drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +35 15x7's (funner but looser) [setup Phil drove, thumbs up]

then 12K/10K with 22mm/25.4mm sway bars with 225 NT-01's and +36 15x8 front /+42 15x7.5 rear
(with wider wheels and stagger setup I should have put the 24mm front bar back on, too much rollover in the front and instability all-around)

New car is going to be: 12K/14K and 24mm/25.4mm with 225 NT-01's and 15x8's

^^^ BOMB info.......

then 8K/6K with 24mm/22mm sway bars with 205 RA-1's and +43 15x7's (funner) [setup Gabe drove, thumbs up]

we can the same set minus tires.....LOL

[PhoenixR]

Joser,

For what it's worth, I run 14K front/18K rear springs.

stock LS front swaybar / 32mm Speedway Engineering rear bar.

the spring rates that you run are entirely dependent on your alignment and driving style.

most of the people that have driven my car have spun it almost immediately. haha.

[LoooseGSR]

Joser,

For what it's worth, I run 14K front/18K rear springs.

stock LS front swaybar / 32mm Speedway Engineering rear bar.

the spring rates that you run are entirely dependent on your alignment and driving style.

most of the people that have driven my car have spun it almost immediately. haha.


Tony's right, I made it halfway through a session in his car and spun coming out of corner 3...which has never happened before, that thing is LOOOOSE....but it was a blast to drive.

[BlueTeg]

Thx brotha.....and didn't mean to put words in your mouth......I know what you meant.....and I was merely saying you brought up 18k rears.....and its the 1st time I hear of something that stiff in the rear vs the front...unless Danny had 24k fronts...lol

that 18k mention, made me question....that is all brotha......the intrawebz is hard to interpret..


No offense taken.
Danny ran 16k F, 18k R, on that car.

[SlowCivicHmm]

So figured I'd continue here, and not start a new thread..

Ended up getting 12k/16k.....

LETS TALK SWAY BARS.......

I'm thinking of staying w/my 24mm GSR front bar, and NO REAR



Once I drive the car I'll see how loose it is.......

WHAT WOULD YOU GUYS RUN IN THE BACK??

No BAR?
22mm Progress?
23mm ITR Bar?
19mm Eibach Bar?


Lets discusss......since I can't hit the track anytime soon, lets bench build..and yes I know it'll all depends on what I like based on my driving style..

[mixedCRX]

hey slow, what are ways to see if you need a stiffer sway? or is it just put one on and see if it helps?

i just have a stock front and no rear btw

[SlowCivicHmm]

well how loose is your rear end?? do you like it loose??

Does the car feel neutral around the track??

I always rocked ONLY a rear on my VX....then I added a front......with lots of seat time I manage to love my set up and take control of the "feeL"

This time I might rock no sways and start the learning curve all over..

[Agent Smith]

Unless your trying for a specific class and don't want to take the points of a sway bar, not running sway bars is stupid in my opinion. Sway bars basically increase your effective spring rates, and increase roll resistance. Sway bars do not limit or compromise ride quality, dampening, rebound, travel, or anything else, essentially getting a bigger sway bar gives you a higher spring rate and more roll resistance with the only downside as "points" & a small amount of weight. On a honda, sway bars make a huge difference and help substantially.

Loose is not always fast, in fact there are only so many turns were overseer helps lap times, usually it hurts more than it helps. 90+% of the time neutral is the fastest line, holding the most traction possible on all 4 tires and being able to modulate oversteer and understeer with a small flick of the wrist or push or release in the petal, whether that's the gas petal or the brake petal (trail breaking) just depends on the car and driver's preferences.

In a fwd car I don't like having to trail brake to be neutral. I want to be able to lift off the throttle and for the rear to start coming around. I also want to be able to push on the throttle and for the front to start pulling me strait or flooring it and start understeering/breaking traction, but that's just what "I" like, I like neutral and I like flexibility.

My current track setup:
12k front, 10k rear, 25mm front sway JDM itr, 22mm rear sway usdm itr, 15x8 +35, 225/45/15 NT01's
Race valved koni yellows/ground controls
3 degrees of camber all around +5 degrees caster

I want something a little stiffer but I love the set up, I'll be changing to 14k, 12k once I get the engine problems resolved.

On my daily driver 4dr / temporary track car
8k, 6.5k, on ots itr koni yellows / ground controls, 24mm front, 22mm rear, +36 15x6.5 205/50/15 azenis and I need to get an alignment, still it's a very neutral car and comfortable for daily driving and some track fun.

[mixedCRX]

Unless your trying for a specific class and don't want to take the points of a sway bar, not running sway bars is stupid in my opinion. Sway bars basically increase your effective spring rates, and increase roll resistance. Sway bars do not limit or compromise ride quality, dampening, rebound, travel, or anything else, essentially getting a bigger sway bar gives you a higher spring rate and more roll resistance with the only downside as "points" & a small amount of weight. On a honda, sway bars make a huge difference and help substantially.

Loose is not always fast, in fact there are only so many turns were overseer helps lap times, usually it hurts more than it helps. 90+% of the time neutral is the fastest line, holding the most traction possible on all 4 tires and being able to modulate oversteer and understeer with a small flick of the wrist or push or release in the petal, whether that's the gas petal or the brake petal (trail breaking) just depends on the car and driver's preferences.

In a fwd car I don't like having to trail brake to be neutral. I want to be able to lift off the throttle and for the rear to start coming around. I also want to be able to push on the throttle and for the front to start pulling me strait or flooring it and start understeering/breaking traction, but that's just what "I" like, I like neutral and I like flexibility.

My current track setup:
12k front, 10k rear, 25mm front sway JDM itr, 22mm rear sway usdm itr, 15x8 +35, 225/45/15 NT01's
Race valved koni yellows/ground controls
3 degrees of camber all around +5 degrees caster

I want something a little stiffer but I love the set up, I'll be changing to 14k, 12k once I get the engine problems resolved.

On my daily driver 4dr / temporary track car
8k, 6.5k, on ots itr koni yellows / ground controls, 24mm front, 22mm rear, +36 15x6.5 205/50/15 azenis and I need to get an alignment, still it's a very neutral car and comfortable for daily driving and some track fun.

that made so much sense to me!

i guess i just need more seat time to start making changes to my car, i know the next change is my alignment and i have an idea of what im going to put it at to test for my next event.

this thread = :goodpost:

[Colten79]

learning alot in here.. how much does a traction bar help on a ej? or would it hurt it?

[Agent Smith]

I have zero experience with road racing with traction bars, someone else will chime in I'm sure...

[SlowCivicHmm]

I love my Full Race traction bar...

+5* Caster baby!!!!! lol (with flipped upper A arms too)


My bar made turn in amazing........I believe this was the last mod of ver1.0.......again its all about feel...

[Vtecracer]

I switched to Ksport Kontorls earlier this year w/ custom spring rates (13k F, 10k R) and the difference on track was immediate! The car transitions way faster through the corners now. Alot of that has to do with the stiffer spring rates. At this spring rate, their Kontrol shocks still feel well matched for the increase in spring rate. I like front heavy setups, so take that for what it's worth.


The Ksports are tough to beat because I think they're every bit as good as the other popular brands, at a fraction of the price. (UMS and Tri-Tech both get pretty good pricing on the Ksports) I also like that Ksport's local and if need a damper rebuilt I can drive my happy ass down to their facility and drop it off, rather than have to ship it and wait who knows how long to have it reconditioned.

A.

I agree with Gabe. On my DC i run Ksport off the shelf Kontrol Pro's. I run 14k/12k and use an LS 22mm sway in the front and an ITR 22 MM sway in the rear. I like front heavy and the car rotates nicely. I can probably inititate some more rotation by bumping my rear rates up or swapping front for rear. Since i work for KSPORT now i can tell you that the RR version is a bit stiffer in valving and is a bit heavier on the rebound side. The off the shelf kit works well especially with slightly heavier springs. As Ramin said the EG/DC kits do come with 10k/6k but i would easily recommend a 12k/8k setup as your learning your car and driving style. Sway bars i have not messed with much as i have been dialing in the suspension and my own driving and throwing sway bars into the mix really would be adjusting too much stuff for me to really get a handle on what is changing and what i need to change until i feel the suspension is set up and i am comfortable throwing the car around a bit more.