Ls vtec advise needed.

[Broskiballa]

Hello, Im sure there's a million Ls vtec threads on here asking what exactly is ideal for a build. Im not looking for a gnarly fast top of the end build. Im looking for advise on how to build a dependable, long lasting Ls/vtec.


so break down. I own a 2000 civic ex 5 speed. I have never built a motor, but i have swapped quite abit of b- series into ek's. eg's, rex's, and teggys.



Bottom end:
Ls block
Ls crank?
Ls rods? new pistons?

Top End:
Should i go with a b16a2 head to keep it obd2? Or would it not be an issue to go obd1 with a b16a head?

Any and all input is welcome! I have cash in hand, and im looking to get this d16y8 out of my bay. At the same time, I want this done right, properly, what not. Im not looking to throw some junk in and smash on it.



Thanks all!!!

[gunsup0331]

-get everything machined
-replace all perishable items
-get a tune if running high compression
-hit me up im buildin sum motars

[jhooper]

i used all ls parts in my build except for the RS pr3 pistons.

i kept it obd2 to keep the swap easier, to me, it just seems more logical....

[gunsup0331]

i used all ls parts in my build except for the RS pr3 pistons.

i kept it obd2 to keep the swap easier, to me, it just seems more logical....
still running obd2 ecu then?

[Broskiballa]

yeah seems very logical to stay obd2. But the question is aren't the Ls rods not capable of reving to 8,200rpms? So you kept all the stock bottom end internals but pistons? what bolts/ bearings did you use? -jhooper (http://www.azht.net/forum/member.php?u=11981)


What exactly would i be getting machined? What are perishable in the motor? obviously replace everything that includes, seals, bearings, bolts, ect. You build motors??- gunsup0331 (http://www.azht.net/forum/member.php?u=13203)

[Mr.Burner]

You use honda or acl bearings, arp rod bolts for the rods, and have the rods re-sized and you can rev it all day, aslong as you have oil in it haha.

[gunsup0331]

-i would at LEAST get the cylinders bored/honed to a correct size, usually a size up to accomodate proper piston-wall clearances, out-of-round and taper. Throwing a quick hone and new rings on there is usually just asking for trouble.
-check for block deck warpage, even on a flat deck i like to get it buzzed clean for a good mating surface
-get your block/head properly cleaned IE hot tanked/jet cleaned
-i would put arp rod bolts in the stock rods and get them shotpeened and resized (back to oem)
-check for main bearing bore alignment and if you plan on having a reliable, thrashable bottom end get the main bearing bores honed/bored
-i would have a reputable shop fully inspect the cylinder head and deck the mating surface if there are ANY imperfections

Yes I build engines on the side. Feel free to contact me via PM for specifics in that regard

[aznkid4now]

if you have the funds definitely get the rods shot peened to strengthen them. learn how to use your calipers micrometer and a dial indicator precise measuring of all the clearances is important although i am not sure of them haha. have fun.

[Broskiballa]

Word thanks guys! I definitely have the money. Been saving for this for awhile. What do shot peened positively do to the rods? Hot tanked and jet cleaned? what does that do as well? Thanks guys for the help! This build is definitely going to bring out some nice numbers.

[Broskiballa]

I have another question, would it be wise to go with an ls block vs a gsr block? Ls block doesnt have oil squirters if im correct? Again thanks guys for the help! You guys are really the shit.

[Mr.Burner]

Well if your trying to put out some good numbers then i would strongly suggest building a 2.0l b20..

its the same stroke and rods as an ls, just with a bigger piston and thats what you need to make the most optimal power. Displacement is what the b20 has...11:5:1 pistons is what you should be using. with decent set of cams and throttle body, you'll be at the 200whp mark no problem.

Shot pening the rods just makes them stronger so they say, and jet cleaning is just well cleaning of the parts.

[Broskiballa]

Would the me making this b20 vtec setup, (actually doing this right) be dependable and be able to rev to 8200rpms?

[Broskiballa]

btw thanks again man for all the input you're providing. i currently have a few g's waiting to start buying parts this next coming week. Im stoked.

[gunsup0331]

my b20v with gsr rotating assy made max power at 8250rpms...

a similar setup with ls stroke should be around 8000rpm peak with a bit more torque

shotpeening makes the rods surface structure uniform and greatly reduces the tendency for cracking
relieves microscopic surface risers that can become weak points when stressed.

i wouldnt rev a stock Ls rod much past 8k on a regular basis, piston speeds are ridiculous

[jhooper]

still running obd2 ecu then?

no sir, my good buddy rewired the ecu harness so i could run an obd1 ecu

yeah seems very logical to stay obd2. But the question is aren't the Ls rods not capable of reving to 8,200rpms? So you kept all the stock bottom end internals but pistons? what bolts/ bearings did you use? -jhooper (http://www.azht.net/forum/member.php?u=11981)




well i wouldnt advise reving to 8200 rpms all the time....but my limiter is at 8.5k and im not having any problems yet, but i dont mash on the gas every second of the day. plus you gotta think, unless your doing a monster n/a build, your probably not going to break the 200hp mark or anywhere close to it anyway. stock rods should be fine, based off my experience of course.

im using acl race bearrings and arp head studs, rod bolts and main bolts to keep everything together. i tripple checked the torque specs twice just to be sure nothing breaks.

[Mr.Burner]

You will be able to rev the b20v to 8500 with no issues built right...

This doesnt mean its ok to be reving all the time though. any stock rod can only handle so much before failure. But when you need it, it'll be there for you. 2.0 is a great option if you wanna whoop ls-v guys haha

[Broskiballa]

Thanks guys! I think i got alot of information of out you guys, really helped alot. As far as aftermarket pistons go, would there be a suggestment upgrade over stock rods? I don't mash all the time, but it can be addicting every once in awhile. Just kind of worried about failure now : / lol

[Mr.Burner]

Eagle rods will work, kinda heavy for all motor, but for the price... its cheaper then a set of chromolly i beams.

[Broskiballa]

Eagle rods will work, kinda heavy for all motor, but for the price... its cheaper then a set of chromolly i beams.

Thanks again sir! All advise really appreciated!

[92LUDAvtec]

if you have the funds definitely get the rods shot peened to strengthen them. learn how to use your calipers micrometer and a dial indicator precise measuring of all the clearances is important although i am not sure of them haha. have fun.

ok from my understanding yes you want to check your clearances(sp?) to a point but also what 2point6 explained to me is with a high comp race motor if you will, you dont want super tight fitting bearing however you dont want really loose. now my n/a build is h22 but but im just letting you know how i was informed from a very repetable(sp?) engine builder
azkid in no way am i questioning your knowledge just stating what i know and i could very well have heard it wrong

[aznkid4now]

^im not too familiar on the how much clearance you want im sure there are many threads on hondatech about this

[92LUDAvtec]

i was told to go with standard bearings no oversize lol i run acl also great bearings

[highwhey]

Would the me making this b20 vtec setup, (actually doing this right) be dependable and be able to rev to 8200rpms?
yes...i've taken my internally stock b20v to 8k before, no big deal. i don't do it everyday because i know what can happen and it won't make power at those high revs anyways, well for me. typically i won't rev past 7k though...just to be on the safe side.

as for reliability, if you do what some of these guys have suggested, you will be fine. a well built b20v can last for a very long time. again, referencing my stock b20v, it's lasted a good while in my hands. in about 2 months i put close to 3k-4k miles without a single hiccup. the only issues i've had with my car was a small leak from the o-ring on the water pipe(easy $3 fix) and a broken distributor rotor($7 fix) and a leaking oil pan gasket(21$ for gasket). all in all, it's been reliable day after day. with the exception of the broken rotor, these issues were minor and didn't impede my performance or reliability but they obviously needed attention before they escalated to something else.

[Bill Cosby]

be ready to spend 5k.... new everything

oil pump
water pump
head gasket
timing belt
cam seal
arp head studs
gaskets galore
(if your taking it to +8K your gonna want valve train)
injectors
clutch and flywheel
need your head machined for lsvtec

depending on how crazy you wanna go import power house has itr replica pistons very cheap and i would just mount those on stock rods with arp rod bolts, or you could do like burner said and get aftermarket pistons/rods... if i could do it again id get better pistons and rods

being your first motor i would just pay someone to disassemble/measure/assemble your motor and show you what to do, measurements are serious business

[Mr.Burner]

5-8k sounds a bit high, fuckin kswap it if your gonna spend that much.

I've spun ls rods up to 8600 plenty of times, if you have the rods machined they'll be fine.

New pistons, final bore and hone with standard size bearings will be just fine.

With clearences, of course its good to run them looser, less rotating friction on the rotating assembly the more hp it will make, but this will also premature wear the bearings. If using honda bearings, you can mic them out to be at the looser side of honda's spec.

[Bill Cosby]

I'm talkin 5k total
Block
Head
Tranny
Mounts
Linkage
Machining
All new parts
When your done you'll have a built swap

Mr burner is right though if you can get a good deal on a k swap it might be the same price initially and you can gather parts to go crazy later

***edit*** b20 swap for sale
http://www.azht.net/forum/showthread.php?t=139139

another full swap
http://www.azht.net/forum/showthread.php?t=139256

[ceyazzie]

wit 5k.. k motor b better..

[ceyazzie]

i got first gen b16 head.. ls block itr oversize piston wit Gsr crank and stock LS rods.. very reliable and easy 8500 redline.. BUT i dont push it motor that far... OBD1 setup.. tuned ECU.. not all b20 have high compression...

[lil black Ek9]

Over the 2 options I would say b20 is the way to go to make good power. Get a decent high comp. Piston, 11.5 would be what I would go for. A Gsr rotating assembly would be nice to do. Arp hardware is a must, and get the bottom end balanced/blueprited if you want to rev higher. But along with the higher CR your going to need a decent Valvetrain. Get a good flowing header and good intake Mani and TB. What's the point of a good motor if it can't breath properly. I've always thought bigger displacement men. More opportunity of making good power but I guess thats just the v8 side of me haha. Good luck on the build man should be a very fun project. :thumbup:

[taketurns]

You don't need any "valvetrain". The stock VTEC(b16a and 18c1) valvetrain will handle 8200rpm fine. You don't need to take it any higher than that. b20v's are a different kind of usuable power, it's called torque, which is power you don't have to hit 8k rpm's to feel. Gearing is more important than rpm's with this motor.

[Bill Cosby]

My b20 makes power to 8800

[lil black Ek9]

if you plan on making good power, your gonna want higher compression.If you decide to go higher compression ( i would recommend) you WILL need a decent valvetrain to make any good power. yes stock valvetrain will be fine will a bone stock b20v, but aftermarket will be better if your trying to make good power.

[taketurns]

if you plan on making good power, your gonna want higher compression.If you decide to go higher compression ( i would recommend) you WILL need a decent valvetrain to make any good power. yes stock valvetrain will be fine will a bone stock b20v, but aftermarket will be better if your trying to make good power.

You need valvetrain for cam's that make power, not valvetrain to make power.

[lil black Ek9]

Valvetrain= cams, springs, retainers. Have you ever tried stock top end with a high compression block? Doesn't work, you need top end to make good power. Nuff said

[taketurns]

Valvetrain= cams, springs, retainers. Have you ever tried stock top end with a high compression block? Doesn't work, you need top end to make good power. Nuff said

No, I have never done anything engine related. YOU ARE MASTER SUPERIOR TUNING IS GREAT TUNING SHAWNEE NEVER BLOW UP ENGINE.

[Bill Cosby]

No, I have never done anything engine related. YOU ARE MASTER SUPERIOR TUNING IS GREAT TUNING SHAWNEE NEVER BLOW UP ENGINE.

WTF are you giving advice for... Stfu!

[taketurns]

WTF are you giving advice for... Stfu!

Check out the thread title.

[Bill Cosby]

Check out the thread title.

I was keeding I actually agree with this post ---> "You need valvetrain for cam's that make power, not valvetrain to make power"

It would not hurt to have a built bottom end with a stock head & stock cams as long as your not revving it out past the original redline... It just wouldn't make good power

[lil black Ek9]

Cams operate rockers, which operate valves. That's why they call it a valve train. Anything that is used to open and close valves is valve train. Automotive 101. And ^^^^ you just said it no power past original redline which is like 7200. If you want to only rev to 7200 buy a single cam. And WTF are you talking about surpior tuning? What does that have to do with anything?

[taketurns]

Cams operate rockers, which operate valves. That's why they call it a valve train. Anything that is used to open and close valves is valve train. Automotive 101. And ^^^^ you just said it no power past original redline which is like 7200. If you want to only rev to 7200 buy a single cam. And WTF are you talking about surpior tuning? What does that have to do with anything?

You need to learn.

[Bill Cosby]

Cams operate rockers, which operate valves. That's why they call it a valve train. Anything that is used to open and close valves is valve train. Automotive 101. And ^^^^ you just said it no power past original redline which is like 7200. If you want to only rev to 7200 buy a single cam. And WTF are you talking about surpior tuning? What does that have to do with anything?

WTF are you talking about you crazy bastard, redline of a b16 is 8200 depending on which head/ecu you have. I never said the motor would not make power past original redline, but the motor overall will not make good power with a stock cam.

And WTF d series? Even though it won't make 210-220 with a stock head your still going to make 180-190 with 150 ft/lbs of torque.

[lil black Ek9]

Hmm I'll admit it was late and that was a retarded comment that made no sense. I was thinking the original redline of a ls/b20 because of the block. Not thinking about the head which is what we were arguing about lol no more late night half drunk posts for me. to the OP go b20 for sure.