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The God Damn Batman
07-15-2011, 01:38 PM
I dont know if its just me losing focus or what, but I cant get up in the morning to get to the gym. Whats the best stims that will not screw up my progress?

Im actually not a fan of any stims at all.. but at this point its better then not gonig to the gym at all. Maybe Im just being lazy, idk, but its been too long.

Spec C
07-15-2011, 03:47 PM
Is this something more then a cup of coffee can fix?

If you wanted to try something else before adding in an actual stim, you could try this It is more a nootropic/focus enhance, with creatine, and added endurance enhancing ingredients.

Pretty solid product as far as supplements go. They don't use a proprietary blend, or a bunch of fillers. And all ingredients are at full/efficacious doses. Doesn't taste great, but that shouldn't matter..lol

Omega Ultima:
http://sportsnutritiononline.com/omega-sports-ultima-40-servings.html



Something else with more emphasis on mood/energy/focus, and a bit heavier on the stims would be something like this:
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/man/swagger-84-caps.html

This one also lists all ingredients, and their quantities, as well as having full doses of them all.



Other then that you get into stimulated pre-workout products, stimulant based fat burners/energy products, or just certain stims in bulk(ie. caffiene, etc) It just depends what exactly what your looking for ie. if you want the addition of creatine, or heat from certain fat burning ingredients,etc. If something like that is more your fancy, post back, and we can delve into more heavy stimulated products.


Hope that helps-

The God Damn Batman
07-15-2011, 05:08 PM
Is this something more then a cup of coffee can fix?

If you wanted to try something else before adding in an actual stim, you could try this It is more a nootropic/focus enhance, with creatine, and added endurance enhancing ingredients.

Pretty solid product as far as supplements go. They don't use a proprietary blend, or a bunch of fillers. And all ingredients are at full/efficacious doses. Doesn't taste great, but that shouldn't matter..lol

Omega Ultima:
http://sportsnutritiononline.com/omega-sports-ultima-40-servings.html



Something else with more emphasis on mood/energy/focus, and a bit heavier on the stims would be something like this:
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/man/swagger-84-caps.html

This one also lists all ingredients, and their quantities, as well as having full doses of them all.



Other then that you get into stimulated pre-workout products, stimulant based fat burners/energy products, or just certain stims in bulk(ie. caffiene, etc) It just depends what exactly what your looking for ie. if you want the addition of creatine, or heat from certain fat burning ingredients,etc. If something like that is more your fancy, post back, and we can delve into more heavy stimulated products.


Hope that helps-


Thanks man! Always a great help.

I will try the coffe for now, but I was always trying to stay away from it, as I always thought it may hinder my gains. If that doesnt help, yes, I would like something for energy/mood as I think even more-so than the energy, my moods just not with it. Which in turn as an effect on my work out.

I will check out what you have posted so far. Thanks again.

Spec C
07-15-2011, 05:23 PM
Thanks man! Always a great help.

I will try the coffe for now, but I was always trying to stay away from it, as I always thought it may hinder my gains. If that doesnt help, yes, I would like something for energy/mood as I think even more-so than the energy, my moods just not with it. Which in turn as an effect on my work out.

I will check out what you have posted so far. Thanks again.
No prob man.

I hear good things about "Swagger" as far as a stim with solid nootropic/mood enhancing, if you do want to go the stimulant route.

I can say this, there is a BIG difference between a product like that, and coffee, or even caffeine in terms of effects. It just comes down to if it is worth the added cost to you over a home brewed cup of coffee.

Although it is actually cheaper then drinking a rockstar or energy drink pre-workout, or buying coffee price wise, so consider that. It about $1.07 per serving, and if you only use it 3 days a week, pre-workout it will last just over 9 weeks.



Let us know what you decide.

VTECin5th
07-15-2011, 07:43 PM
That man swagger contains PEA and DMAE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylethylamine

PEA has an extremely short half-life, wiki claims a normal dose may not even be able to reach the brain in time.

MDAE is used in industrial applications and is claimed to be a skin irritant, but does show positive mood effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAA

I can show you where to get DMAA for a reasonable price. Do your research on any stimulant your body is not used to. Not all companies will list all of the ingredients in their supplements, especially overseas companies. "7 day slim" has a synthetic stimulant in it that was pulled from the market. They don't list this in the ingredients and it comes thru Mexico or Canada.

I wouldn't get anything heavier than DMAA, such as MDPV or anything that may be extremely addictive similar to a speed alternative. I can also get you 4-FA, MDPV, Methylone and similar compounds but these can kill you if you're not careful. A personal friend of mine loved DMAA as an energy supplement.

He would buy it as a powder and just put a small amount in his drink or parachute a napkin with a small amount in it. He showed no signs of addiction or love, just needed it for about 2 weeks during finals and never needed more.

Spec C
07-15-2011, 08:12 PM
That man swagger contains PEA and DMAE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylethylamine

PEA has an extremely short half-life, wiki claims a normal dose may not even be able to reach the brain in time.

MDAE is used in industrial applications and is claimed to be a skin irritant, but does show positive mood effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAA

.
If you have ever taken PEA by itself, you can for sure feel it. However it doesn't last long, good for studying, and pre-wo..imo

The problem with picking a formulation like this apart is ingredients are synergistic, for instance pea + caffeine has "some" synergy. Also the real synergism, and what you failed to take away from the wiki is the part about mao's..
If initial phenylethylamine brain concentration was low, phenylethylamine brain levels can be increased by a 1000-fold when taking a MAO Inhibitor, and by 3-4 times if the initial concentration was high. Then look at the ingredient in "Swagger" Rhodiola Rosea(Adaptogen)...;)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19168123
CONCLUSIONS:

The present investigation demonstrates that Rhodiola rosea L. roots have potent anti-depressant activity by inhibiting MAO A and may also find application in the control of senile dementia by their inhibition of MAO B.
Additionally look at the PEA dosing, and how low it is. It would make sense it is this low, given the above information, no?

DMAE is said to be synergistic with tyrosine as well.

The beauty of any well formulated supplement, is this type of synergism. Exploiting it, in order to take ingredients that by themselves may not be super affective, and making them exceptionally effective.

Are there people who don't like, or respond to PEA? Sure. There are people that don't like, or respond to many things. But we are not really looking at PEA alone.

As for DMAE being an irritant, it may be, for some. I am not sure what that matters though. If you are allergic to peanuts and rub them on your skin, it is a skin irritant.

However DMAE is also found in many skin creams, and said to promote skin health...sooooooo which is it?


The problem with stimulants, and really most supplements in general is there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Even prescription meds suffer from a wide degree of varying results sometimes.

FWIW I actually got an email 3 days ago from a friend back east who lifts in regards to swagger. He works in finance, in NYC for one of the largest investment firms, and needs to be mentally sharp all day, which sometimes is hard coupled with a very low calorie diet.
Bro, I've been using this nootropic called 'Swagger' that I got from NP, and I freaking love it! This shit is on point. I feel mentally sharp and extra confident all day. Check it out. It's almost like a mild adderall. lolLike anything else in life, you have to try it for yourself.

Plenty of other nootropics/stims on the market too however.

VTECin5th
07-18-2011, 03:20 AM
No sir, I haven't tried PEA by itself. I'm a caffeine junky. I just came in here to share info. Some people are sensitive to phenyls among others and the guy should be self-educated well before a testimonial or friend of a friend. I don't discredit anything you say, this is your section and your experience. I just deal in a similar market and want the guy to be safe and know some of the backgrounds to compounds before getting started.

I've tried some of the others for their pain killing and energy properties, mdpv did nothing for me but some people can't put it down like crack. Methylone was one of the most insightful and analgesic drugs I've ever taken. Mephedrone made me feel like a dirty tweeker but this isn't the standard. Everyone is different and reacts different. I'm not a stimulant chaser other than caffeine and that meets my needs just fine. I just want everyone to be careful with anything that could have potentially negative side effects, now or later. Knowledge first, testimonials second and experience in moderation comes third.

4-MMC, 4-MEC and 3-FMC are also available to me OP, but do research, read read read.

Spec C
07-18-2011, 07:14 AM
No sir, I haven't tried PEA by itself. I'm a caffeine junky. I just came in here to share info. Some people are sensitive to phenyls among others and the guy should be self-educated well before a testimonial or friend of a friend. I don't discredit anything you say, this is your section and your experience. I just deal in a similar market and want the guy to be safe and know some of the backgrounds to compounds before getting started.

I've tried some of the others for their pain killing and energy properties, mdpv did nothing for me but some people can't put it down like crack. Methylone was one of the most insightful and analgesic drugs I've ever taken. Mephedrone made me feel like a dirty tweeker but this isn't the standard. Everyone is different and reacts different. I'm not a stimulant chaser other than caffeine and that meets my needs just fine. I just want everyone to be careful with anything that could have potentially negative side effects, now or later. Knowledge first, testimonials second and experience in moderation comes third.

4-MMC, 4-MEC and 3-FMC are also available to me OP, but do research, read read read.
FWIW you didn't mention any safety concerns of PEA, just its effectiveness and that is what I was responding mostly to.

For the most part things being produced in a cGMP facility have a higher level of safety. Pea, DMAE, etc have been around for a LOOOONG time. If these were posing any real threat, the FDA would be all over them, and they would find themselves on the banned list.

I would be quicker to question where the raw materials you are purchasing are coming from. ie China, as that is where almost all of this stuff is coming from. Without cGMP facilities on this end, doing independent testing there could be a host of problems with those raw materials. Does that concern you? Do you have third party COA's on your "bulk" stimulants?

I will agree and say everyone should do their own research, but they need to consider the source and get a broad sampling of information, as a lot of it is going to be contradictory. I can find "scare sites" proclaiming the dangers of anything, Aspirin for instance.

Lastly I wouldn't recommend anything I felt was potentially dangerous. I consider a supplement like this, as having a high degree of safety, when used correctly. Now if a person uses it, and likes it is a different story, as we all respond differently.

Like any stim, one should ramp up. Take 1/3-1/2 the dose to access tolerance, and go from there.

The God Damn Batman
07-18-2011, 09:36 AM
Thanks both of you for the great info. Im going to do more research.

Spec C
07-18-2011, 09:46 AM
If you want to try Ultima I have a tub and will give you some to try. My wife uses it pre workout. No stims.

I'll also give you some white flood and mesomorph to try as I have both sitting around.both stimulated pre workouts.just let me know.

The God Damn Batman
07-18-2011, 10:39 AM
Thanks man. I'd love to. PM replied.

VTECin5th
07-19-2011, 07:21 AM
FWIW you didn't mention any safety concerns of PEA, just its effectiveness and that is what I was responding mostly to.

For the most part things being produced in a cGMP facility have a higher level of safety. Pea, DMAE, etc have been around for a LOOOONG time. If these were posing any real threat, the FDA would be all over them, and they would find themselves on the banned list.

I would be quicker to question where the raw materials you are purchasing are coming from. ie China, as that is where almost all of this stuff is coming from. Without cGMP facilities on this end, doing independent testing there could be a host of problems with those raw materials. Does that concern you? Do you have third party COA's on your "bulk" stimulants?

I will agree and say everyone should do their own research, but they need to consider the source and get a broad sampling of information, as a lot of it is going to be contradictory. I can find "scare sites" proclaiming the dangers of anything, Aspirin for instance.

Lastly I wouldn't recommend anything I felt was potentially dangerous. I consider a supplement like this, as having a high degree of safety, when used correctly. Now if a person uses it, and likes it is a different story, as we all respond differently.

Like any stim, one should ramp up. Take 1/3-1/2 the dose to access tolerance, and go from there.

I didn't think I'd need to, just a quick glance at it with a wiki link. I've never researched PEA by itself until you posted the man swagger. I've researched a lot of stims but not taken many, I didn't realize PEA would be useful. I'm appreciative of the feedback and stand by what I said.

A very high percent of the chemicals I deal with are china made whoknowswhats, but a lot of the supplement industry is run the same way*. Some chemicals have been 3rd party certified, some are made in USA, depends on what I'm dealing with and how much I need at what purity. I know that a lot of supplements are made with foreign chemicals but that doesn't scare me. Tainted tylenol and aspirin happens yearly with the FDA forcefully involved.

I disagree about the FDA rushing to remove things though. If PEA+DMEA have potential for use without danger, they're going to make them drugs or label them unsafe ... and then, market them. This is the case with almost every single regulated drug. We are guinea pigs for the market. While there are some restrictions and requirements, it's kinda "go fast and hope". The 7 day slim was pulled after YEARS of people taking it because it contained a stimulant "said" to cause problems for people. The long term effects of PEA, DMEA and everything listed are still unknown. MDMA (Ecstasy), Amphetamines, Opiates/oids, LSD (acid) were all long used legally, and these are "hard core drugs". Well, unless you get 'em from a doctor, then they're ok. ;)

FDA: $ > safety.

Caffeine causes problems for people, even me, so when I see caffeine in supplements, I am often times more comfortable because the FDA DOES limit and regulate caffeine content in everything. They're more likely to run a legit operation at safer levels with GRAS in mind. You're literally better off shoving an unknown new stimulant into a tablet and pushing it to market ... than to go over the FDA limit of caffeine per pill. Then, it's nobody's fault. This statement was not evaluated by the FDA and doesn't treat any disease.

As stated, I'm not here to be dickish, this is a sensitive area that should be very informational, not just relational. I know you're only in this whole section to help. I wouldn't ever go out on a limb and even accuse you of naively hurting someone, I know your intentions are good ones. You can have your section back now, I'll get back to fap&troll. :biggrin:

javio24
07-19-2011, 07:37 AM
Is this something more then a cup of coffee can fix?

If you wanted to try something else before adding in an actual stim, you could try this It is more a nootropic/focus enhance, with creatine, and added endurance enhancing ingredients.

Pretty solid product as far as supplements go. They don't use a proprietary blend, or a bunch of fillers. And all ingredients are at full/efficacious doses. Doesn't taste great, but that shouldn't matter..lol

Omega Ultima:
http://sportsnutritiononline.com/omega-sports-ultima-40-servings.html

aside from that one listed above, would you recommend any of these?

http://nitrofatburners.com/weight-training/best-pre-workout-supplement/

Spec C
07-19-2011, 07:49 AM
I disagree about the FDA rushing to remove things though. If PEA+DMEA have potential for use without danger, they're going to make them drugs or label them unsafe ... and then, market them. This is the case with almost every single regulated drug. We are guinea pigs for the market. While there are some restrictions and requirements, it's kinda "go fast and hope". The 7 day slim was pulled after YEARS of people taking it because it contained a stimulant "said" to cause problems for people. The long term effects of PEA, DMEA and everything listed are still unknown. MDMA (Ecstasy), Amphetamines, Opiates/oids, LSD (acid) were all long used legally, and these are "hard core drugs". Well, unless you get 'em from a doctor, then they're ok. ;)

FDA: $ > safety.


They do this if it has actual merit. If it is just dangerous, or not really useful in a clinical setting it gets banned. Look at all the pro-hormones, and designer amphetamines that have been banned.

You are more then entitled to your opinion, and I am happy to hear it, I just generally don't agree with it, atleast in this case. I do 100% agree with doing your research. But again you have to consider the sources and consider these things are changing all the time.

At the end of the day, we don't know the long term effects of eating coco puffs, let alone any drug. And everytime a study comes out with one result, 2 years later a study comes out with the opposite result. You need to really pick things apart, make a decision on what side of the fence you stand.

If we were talking about more serious things, or more extreme doses I would concur with your sentiments. I just don't find anything here to be of any concern.

I am a firm believer in moderation. Not pushing doses, not running things for extreme amounts of time, etc.

Spec C
07-19-2011, 07:58 AM
aside from that one listed above, would you recommend any of these?

http://nitrofatburners.com/weight-training/best-pre-workout-supplement/
I get samples all the time when I buy protein and such so I have used quite a few of those.

I have never tried assault but I hear good things.

BB4- swears by Hemo Rage, but I have never tried it.

1mr is ok.. I think there is better. In fact I used this yesterday, as I have like 10 samples of it.

Jack3d is ok. Not my favorite. Wouldn't buy it.

If you "need" a pre-wo. I would try first, http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/aps/mesomorph-388-grams.html?sel=3941

Having used just about all pre-workouts mesomorph is the best to me, with probably my second favorite being http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/vpx-sports/no-shotgun-v-3-644-g.html?sel=1909

Both of those have very solid ingredient profiles. I like that Shotgun has protein in the form of pepto pro, and bcaa's.

Mesomorph has nice full doses, of all its ingredients, not a bunch of filler, and also has creatine nitrate, which is my preferred form of creatine and really sets it apart.

Other then that I would try Assault just because I haven't tried it and I hear a lot of good things.

Remember these are only my feelings/experience with these, your results may vary :)

javio24
07-19-2011, 08:36 AM
I get samples all the time when I buy protein and such so I have used quite a few of those.

I have never tried assault but I hear good things.

BB4- swears by Hemo Rage, but I have never tried it.

1mr is ok.. I think there is better. In fact I used this yesterday, as I have like 10 samples of it.

Jack3d is ok. Not my favorite. Wouldn't buy it.

If you "need" a pre-wo. I would try first, http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/aps/mesomorph-388-grams.html?sel=3941

Having used just about all pre-workouts mesomorph is the best to me, with probably my second favorite being http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/vpx-sports/no-shotgun-v-3-644-g.html?sel=1909

Both of those have very solid ingredient profiles. I like that Shotgun has protein in the form of pepto pro, and bcaa's.

Mesomorph has nice full doses, of all its ingredients, not a bunch of filler, and also has creatine nitrate, which is my preferred form of creatine and really sets it apart.

Other then that I would try Assault just because I haven't tried it and I hear a lot of good things.

Remember these are only my feelings/experience with these, your results may vary :)

Thanks a lot...

Would those be good for females too? Just smaller doeses correct?

Spec C
07-19-2011, 08:50 AM
Thanks a lot...

Would those be good for females too? Just smaller doeses correct?

Yup. Just really start low and increase as needed. I'd say .25-.5 of the recommended dose to start. But you never know after she uses a half dose she may be able to/want a full dose, its hard to say . Better to start low and work up imo.


I give my wife Ultima pre workout. She works nights and needs something preworkout as she goes right from working 12 hrs to the gym, but then has to sleep.

jakellama123
07-19-2011, 11:17 AM
I want to start working out and get my ass up. Im always exhausted in the mornings and dont want to do anything until work.
I want to also get more energy out of it. Ive been working 40+hours a week and soon Ill add 25-30 hours a week of school on to that. Blah

AZ_CIVIC
07-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Jacked 3D works very well but as your body gets used to it you need more scoops.