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View Full Version : Staggered wheels on FWD


Sr20p10
10-22-2011, 08:54 PM
Hey, so who runs staggered wheels on the track on their fwd car? Is it not a good idea to do that, and does it make a big difference? I have a nice, light set of wheels in 16x7/8, and i'd like to use these if I ever track my car. Ive ran the 8's in the front for a while, but im wondering if I should get something else that is the same all around.

mixedCRX
10-22-2011, 10:34 PM
There is a civic that has 275's up front and I'm pretty sure phill in a black eg runs 15x8 front and 15x7 rear. But with 16's your tire choices are slim to none for the 7" wides and I think the 8" wides arnt much better. But it really helps some high horse power FWD's but there are some who will run 8" wide all the way around.

Some one else will chime in with more info so wait to decide until you are positive if you want to use them or not.

Agent Smith
10-24-2011, 09:25 AM
Hey, so who runs staggered wheels on the track on their fwd car? Is it not a good idea to do that, and does it make a big difference? I have a nice, light set of wheels in 16x7/8, and i'd like to use these if I ever track my car. Ive ran the 8's in the front for a while, but im wondering if I should get something else that is the same all around.
You'll be able to use your set up, it's just a matter of getting used to the set up. It may not be the fastest set up, but it will work just fine.

There is a civic that has 275's up front and I'm pretty sure phill in a black eg runs 15x8 front and 15x7 rear. But with 16's your tire choices are slim to none for the 7" wides and I think the 8" wides arnt much better. But it really helps some high horse power FWD's but there are some who will run 8" wide all the way around.

Some one else will chime in with more info so wait to decide until you are positive if you want to use them or not.
Actually I'm pretty sure phil run's 15x9's on all 4 corners now. He was previously running 15x9 front with 15x8 rear though.

I hope to be running 275/35/15 R6's up front on 15x9's & 225/45/15 R6's on 15 x 8 rear on my Turbo Integra next year, Have the wheels, just need to spend the $ on tires and other things first.

With a track car, you want as much traction as you can get on all 4 corners, wider wheels, wider tires, stickier tires, etc they all play a roll. I've ran a couple of different tire compounds F & R that can also provide more oversteer & understeer even on the same size of wheels & tires. It's all about finding a balance that works for YOU.

In short, don't worry about your wheel size especially to begin with, you will be more than fine. I've tracked on 15x6" wheels for a while too, it's just about getting out there & experiencing the track & the car & adapting your driving skills to suit both of them.

boozebag
10-24-2011, 11:36 AM
You'll be able to use your set up, it's just a matter of getting used to the set up. It may not be the fastest set up, but it will work just fine.


Actually I'm pretty sure phil run's 15x9's on all 4 corners now. He was previously running 15x9 front with 15x8 rear though.

I hope to be running 275/35/15 A6's up front on 15x9's & 225/45/15 A6's on 15 x 8 rear on my Turbo Integra next year, Have the wheels, just need to spend the $ on tires and other things first.

With a track car, you want as much traction as you can get on all 4 corners, wider wheels, wider tires, stickier tires, etc they all play a roll. I've ran a couple of different tire compounds F & R that can also provide more oversteer & understeer even on the same size of wheels & tires. It's all about finding a balance that works for YOU.

In short, don't worry about your wheel size especially to begin with, you will be more than fine. I've tracked on 15x6" wheels for a while too, it's just about getting out there & experiencing the track & the car & adapting your driving skills to suit both of them.

poppa robles runs 15x9's all the way around, soon to be 10's with 275's all the way around. I run either 15x9 or 8 (i have both setups) in the front and until i flair the rear like my dad i'm limited to only running 15x8. I plan to run the same setup as my dad eventually.

Sr20p10
10-25-2011, 06:17 PM
cool thx for the help

*inFamous*
10-25-2011, 08:40 PM
And thats how you eat me alive on track! Your running the same size tires with 600lbs less weight lol!

:) *shakes fist*

boozebag
11-04-2011, 01:48 PM
And thats how you eat me alive on track! Your running the same size tires with 600lbs less weight lol!

:) *shakes fist*
no love for driving skills :(? I was on 205's at the last west TA

Phantomeg
11-04-2011, 05:59 PM
Easy Ravi...Your power-to-weight is better than Jesse's!

Koopa Troopa
12-22-2011, 05:38 AM
Y'all ever try running a narrower rear tire?

The Punisher
12-22-2011, 06:20 AM
Easy Ravi...Your power-to-weight is better than Jesse's!

Lol I don't suspect by much...

I'd suspect his NSX is 12:1 ptw

*inFamous*
12-22-2011, 06:21 AM
no love for driving skills :(? I was on 205's at the last west TA

Lol lots of love for your pedal smashing brother! :)

And yes I am at around 12:1... not as fantastic as people imagine lol

gunsup0331
12-22-2011, 08:18 AM
I imagine putting the most rubber to the ground is priority over staggering section width
I would set up to have the biggest shit on the driving wheels possible, then try to match that on the non-driving wheels. If that is not feasible, only then would I consider a staggered setup.
But I haven't been on a track for years lol, I just consider it to be common sense.

BlueTeg
12-22-2011, 05:35 PM
Y'all ever try running a narrower rear tire?

For more rotation?
IMO, there are easier ways to increase rotation via camber, psi, shock settings, or rear swaybar settings. All of those are way easier than running 2 different sizes of tires just to get the back end to rotate better.

Koopa Troopa
12-23-2011, 02:32 AM
For more rotation?
IMO, there are easier ways to increase rotation via camber, psi, shock settings, or rear swaybar settings. All of those are way easier than running 2 different sizes of tires just to get the back end to rotate better.

Correct and correct. Just curious if you guys have tried it before and if you'd share the results. I plan on doing the same with my next car. 225/45/15 and 195/55/15 rear. Plan on, however we'll see what kind of money I actually have to spend. :smirk::sad1:

A lot of the Japanese guys will run a 225 - 255/195-205 tire set up on tracks such as Suzuka. I haven't noticed the tire staggering in the MacPherson strut road race cars isn't as drastic as it's done on the smaller, double wishbone cars and Fits. However the gymkhana guys using DC5s and FD2s will use a 255/195 setting.

BlueTeg
12-23-2011, 10:44 AM
I've run a 225/205 stagger before. Car felt stable both times. :: shrug ::

First time I did, I didn't have the dough to buy 2 new R-comps and had the 205s sitting around and so I ran them for a weekend. The second time was for a TA style competition where all the comptitors had to be on the same crappy street tires. Unfortunately the tire specified for use only came in 1 size for 15" wheels and that was a 195. So I picked up a set of 16s and that gave me some additional choices. Even after stepping up to the larger wheel for additional choices the only reason I ran a stagger was because the 225s were rubbing (pretty much binding) on the RTA. Using a 3mm spacer I was successful in getting the tire to clear the RTA, but now the tires was rubbing on my already rolled rear fenders. I abonded trying to fit a 225 width tire, in that tire diameter (which was about 23.7" or so), and just went with the 205.

Staggered setups suck because it really limits your ability to rotate the tires to promote even wear for the track, or street.

Why are you considering running the staggered setup? To be cool or out of necessity?

Koopa Troopa
12-26-2011, 11:48 PM
Why are you considering running the staggered setup? To be cool or out of necessity?

It's just what I've always been taught to do for short wheel base, FWD cars. Japanese people and myself tend to believe in the "steam roller effect"

Agent Smith
12-27-2011, 11:32 AM
It's just what I've always been taught to do for short wheel base, FWD cars. Japanese people and myself tend to believe in the "steam roller effect"
There are easier ways to produce faster lap times and give more rotation without compromising contact patch. Tuning suspension is one of the most fun things to do in a honda in my opinion. Run the biggest tires you can fit and go from there. I'd rather play with spring rate, rebound & compression, sway bar endlinks, camber settings, caster, toe, air pressure, and wheel offset / spacers before purposely giving yourself a smaller tire and less contact patch.

TauntDevil
12-27-2011, 08:28 PM
91 NSX wheels on my prelube... because cheapcar...srlsy

Koopa Troopa
12-28-2011, 06:52 AM
There are easier ways to produce faster lap times and give more rotation without compromising contact patch. Tuning suspension is one of the most fun things to do in a honda in my opinion. Run the biggest tires you can fit and go from there. I'd rather play with spring rate, rebound & compression, sway bar endlinks, camber settings, caster, toe, air pressure, and wheel offset / spacers before purposely giving yourself a smaller tire and less contact patch.


I'd rather compromise contact patch since there's no way the rear of my car will be utilizing all the tread of anything larger than a 205/50 anyways. More so when the rear end spends most of its time in the air.

Spring rates, they'll either be 18/16 or 20/7 depending on the track. I don't believe in spacers as they just add more stress to studs that see enough stress as it is. Caster is nonadjustable on the double wishbone cars unless running traction bars gives adjustability to that. If there is a way to adjust caster on the double wishbone cars then please don't keep that information secret.:wave1:

Front sway bar will either be gone or stock, more than likely gone and the rear will be a 5 way adjustable set up that is used on sprint cars. Assuming the SCCA rulebook for Super Touring/U will allow that.

I don't like using oversized tires because they love to grab grooves and pull the car in that direction. No power steering and that LSD I have makes driving the car challenging enough without having to fight the tires from grabbing ruts and grooves in the tarmac. This is all just hypothetical though. We'll see what happens when I finally do get a car and get my ass to an event.

Still gotta do some very simple but at the same time difficult things. Find the time and money in between school and being jobless to: 1) find decent 92-95 Civic CX/ VX 2) tear car apart 3) rebuild car in last Civic's image 4) get car running 5) figure out how to get it to pass emissions 6) figure out how to prevent it from being stolen 7) attend enough HPDE events so I can get off the bunny slopes and back to driving.

Agent Smith
12-28-2011, 07:20 AM
I'd rather compromise contact patch since there's no way the rear of my car will be utilizing all the tread of anything larger than a 205/50 anyways. More so when the rear end spends most of its time in the air.

Spring rates, they'll either be 18/16 or 20/7 depending on the track. I don't believe in spacers as they just add more stress to studs that see enough stress as it is. Caster is nonadjustable on the double wishbone cars unless running traction bars gives adjustability to that. If there is a way to adjust caster on the double wishbone cars then please don't keep that information secret.:wave1:

Front sway bar will either be gone or stock, more than likely gone and the rear will be a 5 way adjustable set up that is used on sprint cars. Assuming the SCCA rulebook for Super Touring/U will allow that.

I don't like using oversized tires because they love to grab grooves and pull the car in that direction. No power steering and that LSD I have makes driving the car challenging enough without having to fight the tires from grabbing ruts and grooves in the tarmac. This is all just hypothetical though. We'll see what happens when I finally do get a car and get my ass to an event.

Still gotta do some very simple but at the same time difficult things. Find the time and money in between school and being jobless to: 1) find decent 92-95 Civic CX/ VX 2) tear car apart 3) rebuild car in last Civic's image 4) get car running 5) figure out how to get it to pass emissions 6) figure out how to prevent it from being stolen 7) attend enough HPDE events so I can get off the bunny slopes and back to driving.

If your rear end is up in the air then your suspension set up should change. You want all 4 wheels on the ground as much as possible. You need to learn to maximize grip on all 4 corners to turn fast, no overloading or unloading too much weight on any given corner.

Spacers are no different than lugcentric (not hubcentric) wheels. And they do make hubcentric spacers too, thus making that argument null.

Caster on EF/CRX is easily adjustable with traction bars. Caster on an EG/DC can be changed by swapping the front upper A-Arms Left to Right & Right to left, how much of a gain will vary 2-3 degrees based on how low the car is. EK's you are out of luck on adjusting caster without traction bars & then in my opinion you just risk binding with traction bars on an EG/DC/EK.

Fighting groves in the track is a bunch of bs, compound & tread design will play a much bigger factor here than "oversized" tires or any lsd. I've seen a 225/45/15 on a 6.5" rim up to an 9" rim, it's still the same tire, the larger wheel you fit the more traction you have available & the less sidewall deflection you have. Personally if tire / wheel size is unlimited in your class, I would run 225/45/15 on an 8" wide wheel all around. 8" rims are easy to fit with only fender rolling, no trailing arm modification & still a good amount of tire. You can then rotate tires super easy too.


I plan on doing the same with my next car. 225/45/15 and 195/55/15 rear. Plan on, however we'll see what kind of money I actually have to spend. :smirk::sad1:

What compound tires are you thinking of running? why a taller tire in the rear?

Koopa Troopa
12-28-2011, 09:05 AM
Gonna use R1R's if the money allows it. If not then Star Specs or Khumo XS are both good tires. No reason for the taller tire in the rear, it's just what they sizes they sell them in. I generally perfer taller sidewalls though.

I'm pretty positive the 225/45 should be equal to the 195/55 in terms of sidewall height though.

BlueTeg
12-28-2011, 10:27 AM
I'd rather compromise contact patch since there's no way the rear of my car will be utilizing all the tread of anything larger than a 205/50 anyways. More so when the rear end spends most of its time in the air.

Front sway bar will either be gone or stock, more than likely gone and the rear will be a 5 way adjustable set up that is used on sprint cars. Assuming the SCCA rulebook for Super Touring/U will allow that.

I don't like using oversized tires because they love to grab grooves and pull the car in that direction. No power steering and that LSD I have makes driving the car challenging enough without having to fight the tires from grabbing ruts and grooves in the tarmac.



If your rear is up in the air that's why you're not utilizing more of your rear tire.

If you've beening ditching or running skinny front swaybars that's not helping the car resist lean in the corners, which is also not helping you keep contact patch on the tarmac.

SCCA's road race programs are not well attended here in AZ. For someone like yourself they don't do much, if any, any HPDE. Just racing. Have you actually been to any of their events? What what will it to be to built a car for a class when you're one of 2 people racing in said class.

On the street the oversized tires do that. But that's a non-issue on the road course due to the relatively smooth surface, speed at which we're traveling and hightened driving awareness. What LSD do you have? I thought you said you don't have a car?

BlueTeg
12-28-2011, 10:30 AM
Gonna use R1R's if the money allows it.

R1R = an autocross tire or rain tire for road course action
You'll get shit for mileage from them on the street (too soft) and overheat them on the track...especially out here in AZ between March - Oct.

Koopa Troopa
12-28-2011, 11:41 AM
I like no front sway, car hooks like no other.

Sucks about SCCA, I'm not really into the solo driving against a clock and the SCCA Clubman series was the only wheel to wheel I found. I've been out of the country for the last 6 years. Only track events I've attended are local (Okinawa) gymkhana events. I'll take any track time I can get and attend any event I can afford though, I just want to drive.

I don't have a race car right now but I got a garage full of parts leftover from the last one. The LSD is a Mugen 1.5 way foe theR tranny withva 4.9 ring gear on it. I'm pretty sure it's been set for high intial torque as it loves to chirp and thunk an make tires jump.

Outside of tires like Hoosier A6 and R888's what would you recommend?

Agent Smith
12-28-2011, 02:13 PM
I like no front sway, car hooks like no other.

Sucks about SCCA, I'm not really into the solo driving against a clock and the SCCA Clubman series was the only wheel to wheel I found. I've been out of the country for the last 6 years. Only track events I've attended are local (Okinawa) gymkhana events. I'll take any track time I can get and attend any event I can afford though, I just want to drive.

I don't have a race car right now but I got a garage full of parts leftover from the last one. The LSD is a Mugen 1.5 way foe theR tranny withva 4.9 ring gear on it. I'm pretty sure it's been set for high intial torque as it loves to chirp and thunk an make tires jump.

Outside of tires like Hoosier A6 and R888's what would you recommend?
Sway bars, I'm with Gabe, run them, I love my 25mm front bar. I've tried with & without & played with spring rates from 18k-6k, and adding a sway always helped me, provides a more confident and quicker car from my experiences.

Here's a couple threads you may find interesting:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3008698
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2194619
http://www.lumenique.com/Cars/mcoupe/modifications/antirollbars.htm

225/45/15 Nitto NT01's all around would be pristine. I'd rather have RS3's than R1R's...

Your Mugen 1.5 way LSD will be fine on track. Try different fluid combos if you want it quieter. The 4.9 may help or hurt you depending on the track, engine, and gear combo, but it's definitely a nice piece to have.

ProAutoSports & NASA have monthly wheel to wheel racing events with street car programs as well (2012 schedules are stickied at the top of this forum). AZSOLO.COM is the local SCCA Auto-X group & they also have a decent showing at every event.

boozebag
12-30-2011, 09:34 AM
I like no front sway, car hooks like no other.

Sucks about SCCA, I'm not really into the solo driving against a clock and the SCCA Clubman series was the only wheel to wheel I found. I've been out of the country for the last 6 years. Only track events I've attended are local (Okinawa) gymkhana events. I'll take any track time I can get and attend any event I can afford though, I just want to drive.

I don't have a race car right now but I got a garage full of parts leftover from the last one. The LSD is a Mugen 1.5 way foe theR tranny withva 4.9 ring gear on it. I'm pretty sure it's been set for high intial torque as it loves to chirp and thunk an make tires jump.

Outside of tires like Hoosier A6 and R888's what would you recommend?

sounds like you need to stop reading peoples weird theories on the interweb and you need to get out there and find out for yourself! hahaha just giving you shit man. But seriously, that parking lot that they called nago circuit is very much so different then a lot of these az tracks. Maybe its just me, but i wouldnt want my ass end rotating on me doing 130mph going into turn 3 or whatever it is after the straight away at inde (probably not that fast, but you get the point) because i'm rolling pizza cutter rear's with huge "steam roller" front. obviously this is all my opinion.

I'm running a mugen 2 way diff. and 225's sometimes all the way around and i've never had any problems with tires grabbing ruts in the tracks. I've never even heard of that until you said something about that.

Kinetic
12-30-2011, 07:18 PM
skip the stagger set up

tune your suspension

but first.....get some gawd damn seat time............. SEAT TIME > OVER All

Koopa Troopa
12-31-2011, 06:18 AM
sounds like you need to stop reading peoples weird theories on the interweb and you need to get out there and find out for yourself! hahaha just giving you shit man. But seriously, that parking lot that they called nago circuit is very much so different then a lot of these az tracks. Maybe its just me, but i wouldnt want my ass end rotating on me doing 130mph going into turn 3 or whatever it is after the straight away at inde (probably not that fast, but you get the point) because i'm rolling pizza cutter rear's with huge "steam roller" front. obviously this is all my opinion.

I'm running a mugen 2 way diff. and 225's sometimes all the way around and i've never had any problems with tires grabbing ruts in the tracks. I've never even heard of that until you said something about that.

130 MP/H aint remotely doable with the 4.9:biggrin:

I'm the last dude to believe wierd theories that I haven't tried myself. I was mostly just asking about it since it's the norm in another country and somewhere else people do the exact opposite.

boozebag
01-11-2012, 02:30 AM
130 MP/H aint remotely doable with the 4.9:biggrin:

I'm the last dude to believe wierd theories that I haven't tried myself. I was mostly just asking about it since it's the norm in another country and somewhere else people do the exact opposite.

ok maybe 110. haha. i dunno.. I bet you could do 130 with a 4.9. no? at like 10k rpm? haha

Koopa Troopa
01-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Maybe. Guess we'll have to find out :tongue::drive:

Agent Smith
01-11-2012, 01:01 PM
Maybe. Guess we'll have to find out :tongue::drive:

130 should be doable with a 4.9 & depending on your power level / rpm limits.

http://www.zealautowerks.com/transcalc.php

Koopa Troopa
01-11-2012, 01:07 PM
Whatever power 305 duration vtec killers, 45mm itb's and a stock bottom pr3 b16a will give you is my power level and rpm has hit 10040 on some gymkhana courses.

Apparently 130 mph is 209 kph.. definitely more than doable. I've gotten pretty close to that on the straights of Okinawa Circuit's 331 North to Hedo course.