B18 cranks in a B16?

[vtecsyndrome]

Can a B18A crank work in a B16 block?
If not, can a B18C crank work?

[HEADSHOT]

i believe nither combination will work. being the b16is a shorter motor then the b18's

[ILIKETODRIVE]

A B18C crank could probably work with custom length rods, AKA - stroker kit.

[no2psi]

Can a B18A crank work in a B16 block?
If not, can a B18C crank work?

Yes, you can. Send me a P.m. if your serious. Its not cheap!!

[DJ NeX]

This kid never posts anything! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

you should post up more often!

[no2psi]

This kid never posts anything! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

you should post up more often!

Thanks mang! I will try. People are'nt serious or dont want to hear the truth, like a
89mm crank in a b16 wont last long! ha ha!

[Fox Vtec]

why that crank though just get a b16b crank

[no2psi]

why that crank though just get a b16b crank

because the motor would still be the same size.

[DJ NeX]

because the motor would still be the same size.

lol. B16A and B16B motors both have 77.4mm Strokes. Now the B16b crank might be massaged a little better and maybe balanced betteR, but that's mere speculation.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

lol. B16A and B16B motors both have 77.4mm Strokes. Now the B16b crank might be massaged a little better and maybe balanced betteR, but that's mere speculation.

They both have the same stroke but the B16B has a waaaay better rod/stroke ratio than the B16A.

Granted, the B16A already has a better than "ideal" rod/stroke ratio.

[DJ NeX]

Yes but the B16B block is essentially a B18C block which has a taller deck height which allows for the longer b16b rods to be used.

[no2psi]

They both have the same stroke but the B16B has a waaaay better rod/stroke ratio than the B16A.

Granted, the B16A already has a better than "ideal" rod/stroke ratio.

What makes an "ideal" rod stroke ratio?

[DJ NeX]

What makes an "ideal" rod stroke ratio?

Exactly.

Alot of people argue that 1.75 puts the least amount of load on the sidewalls, but I don't really like the characteristics of a long rod motor. By characteristics I talking about piston dwell time, piston speeds. I do believe that a shot rod motor will make more power than a Long rod motor of the same displacement.

[no2psi]

Exactly.

Alot of people argue that 1.75 puts the least amount of load on the sidewalls, but I don't really like the characteristics of a long rod motor. By characteristics I talking about piston dwell time, piston speeds. I do believe that a shot rod motor will make more power than a Long rod motor of the same displacement.

^^^^ Word up!
I was just trying to make people think. I have taken motors with low 1.4 rod strokes to
10,000 rpms. If your gonna build and warranty a motor, for 50k miles that spins 9k, yea
it better have good rod stroke, but if your going to take it apart every year, or so it make it
bigger and badder, then I say F%^k rod stroke ratio! Ha ha.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

What makes an "ideal" rod stroke ratio?

That's why I put quotes around it. I don't have enough engine building knowledge to say what is ideal and what isn't.

[DJ NeX]

^^^^ Word up!
I was just trying to make people think. I have taken motors with low 1.4 rod strokes to
10,000 rpms. If your gonna build and warranty a motor, for 50k miles that spins 9k, yea
it better have good rod stroke, but if your going to take it apart every year, or so it make it
bigger and badder, then I say F%^k rod stroke ratio! Ha ha.

I glad to see that at least someone on here does some actually Engine designing with their own BRAIN and not with what people tell them to do. If I had a nickel for ever hearsay engine build I've seen I'd have a shit load of nickels.

Building with the proper thinking and a purpose will always turn out something crazier than another run of the mill build.

[YewllowDA]

good stuff!
so the higher the ratio, the lesser the angle....

[DJ NeX]

That would be correct. Remember tho, short rod motors make more POWER!

[Motorhead]

I think Wiseco makes custom pistons that allow you to run an LS crank in a B16 block with LS rods. The pistons have a shorter compression height to compensate for the difference in deck heights.

If you're going to go through the trouble and building an engine, why not get an LS block. They're dirt cheap these days. You'll probably break even after the build is over, because these custom pistons are more expensive than off the shelf ones.

[Motorhead]

Exactly.

Alot of people argue that 1.75 puts the least amount of load on the sidewalls, but I don't really like the characteristics of a long rod motor. By characteristics I talking about piston dwell time, piston speeds. I do believe that a shot rod motor will make more power than a Long rod motor of the same displacement.

It's the exact opposite Henry. A long rod motor with the same compression, bore and stroke will ALWAYS make more power. The reason for this is the motor will have a higher expansion ratio. The cylinder will be in a "high cylinder pressure" state for longer. Force is pressure times area, so more pressure results in a greater force pushing down on the piston, making more power.

You sacrifice low RPM volumetric efficiency with long rods motor though.

[Splashystrwbery]

That would be correct. Remember tho, short rod motors make more POWER!

cause it doesnt have to go so far?

like u can kick something closer harder cause u dont have to exert ur force so far?


sorry, im new, just trying to learn

[YewllowDA]

more info...http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0506_ht_rod_stroke_ratio/index.html

[DJ NeX]

I've always been under the assumption that long rod = less "stress" and short rod = More Power.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1734257

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1380954

The first link is a VERY interesting discussion. The third post down by RC000E shows how the two motors will have two different characteristics. I believe that a stroker will make torque. To me, torque = FUN!

[DJ NeX]

This is another good article. Now remember, this was written in the 1960's but the principles still apply. The main difference between then and now is that we have better flowing heads and 4 valves per cylinder.

http://www.elgincams.com/campaper.html

[YewllowDA]

agreed
well the engine principles never change in the last 100 yrs actually. were still using the same princples as the first automobiles used.
the only thing that changes are the materials, design and technology(control).

[Motorhead]

I'm not even going to bother reading the bullshit on Honda-Tech, but the second article was about performance camshafts. I don't see any relevance between that and our topic of discussion.

Let's not worry about stress at this stage.

Short rod means higher piston speeds. A higher piston speed means a higher volumetric efficiency at lower RPMs, therefore more power and torque at LOWER RPMs. High piston speeds come at a cost. They travel the distance between TDC and, let's say, 15 degrees ATDC faster. This is either the intake stroke (faster piston speed, "sucking" air in more rapidly, higher VE) or the power stroke. The faster the power stroke is over, the less peak power you'll make.

A slower piston speed sacrifices the volumetric efficiency at lower RPMs (have you seen a Honda or motorcycle and F1 car that makes low end torque/power?) but at higher RPMs, when there's enough piston speed, the volumetric efficiency is not hurt. Since the piston travels slower for any given RPM than a short rod motor, and since the volumetric efficiencies are equal between the two motors at high RPMs, the only factor dictating the power would be how long the engine stays in the power stroke (time wise). The longer it stays in power stroke, the slower it looses cylinder pressure, and it'll make more peak power.

For a same bore, same stroke, same displacement, same everything motor, the longer rod WILL make more peak power. I don't care what Honda-Tech says.

[DJ NeX]

I agree with you on that. But what about the situation that they posed.

Engine A= 1997cc Bore=85mm Stroke=88mm
Engine B=1997cc Bore=80mm Stroke=99.3mm

What would the differences in characteristics of these motors be?

[Motorhead]

Was this in the camshaft link? Because I didn't see it.

Engine A will have more top end. Engine B will make more low end. I can't comment on which one will make more power. If the induction system is half way suitable for each engine, they'll have the same peak output numbers, just different powerbands.

In real life, you can't compare these two engines on ANY level. The parts that are suitable for engine A won't be suitable for engine B. Maybe they weren't away of this in 1960. LOL

[DJ NeX]

Well this is from the first link that I posted up. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but They both have different characteristics.

[onefst91hatch]

I'm not even going to bother reading the bullshit on Honda-Tech, but the second article was about performance camshafts. I don't see any relevance between that and our topic of discussion.

Let's not worry about stress at this stage.

Short rod means higher piston speeds. A higher piston speed means a higher volumetric efficiency at lower RPMs, therefore more power and torque at LOWER RPMs. High piston speeds come at a cost. They travel the distance between TDC and, let's say, 15 degrees ATDC faster. This is either the intake stroke (faster piston speed, "sucking" air in more rapidly, higher VE) or the power stroke. The faster the power stroke is over, the less peak power you'll make.

A slower piston speed sacrifices the volumetric efficiency at lower RPMs (have you seen a Honda or motorcycle and F1 car that makes low end torque/power?) but at higher RPMs, when there's enough piston speed, the volumetric efficiency is not hurt. Since the piston travels slower for any given RPM than a short rod motor, and since the volumetric efficiencies are equal between the two motors at high RPMs, the only factor dictating the power would be how long the engine stays in the power stroke (time wise). The longer it stays in power stroke, the slower it looses cylinder pressure, and it'll make more peak power.

For a same bore, same stroke, same displacement, same everything motor, the longer rod WILL make more peak power. I don't care what Honda-Tech says.

finally some understands!! lol. good rant bro!!

[Motorhead]

Well this is from the first link that I posted up. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but They both have different characteristics.

Ah, I should have figured bullshit like that could be from one and only one place, Honda-Tech.

[no2psi]

Ah, I should have figured bullshit like that could be from one and only one place, Honda-Tech.

Here is my take. Based on my own experience with motors that I have built. I will not sacrifice displacement for better rod stroke ratio. Bigger motor more power every single time. You can only move the wrist pin up so high and make the compression height so small. Then you have to get that big stroke crank in there some how. And yes they become time bombs.

[honduh_head]

good info ^

[DJ NeX]

always good info. We argue alot, buts its all goot!

[Crasy]

i know this was from a long time ago. but its better then satrting another one.
so what would happen if u take a GSR block, put an LS crank in it, with rods, and high comp pistions? what would that be?

[I Hate Import Cars]

i know this was from a long time ago. but its better then satrting another one.
so what would happen if u take a GSR block, put an LS crank in it, with rods, and high comp pistions? what would that be?


It would be a stroked GSR. Assuming you're using a GSR head, it would be the same thing as if you built an "LS/VTEC" using a GSR head. Or if you use a B16A/Type-R head, it would be a stroked "Poor Man's Type R". Sleeve and bore that thing and you can start approaching the 2.0L mark! ;)

I'm actually building this same motor right now, and it is totally doable.

[2point6]

Thanks mang! I will try. People are'nt serious or dont want to hear the truth, like a
89mm crank in a b16 wont last long! ha ha!

Not entirely true. I have done 2 versions using the b16 block. One used a 89mm (LS crank) and the other uses a custom 87mm crank. One has been running for years using the LS crank and rods with a custom set of pistons. the other has yet to hit the streets. ;)

[PhoenixB16]

Scott,are you refering to the tech43 or whateveritscalled kit? I thought that thing smoked like a diesel?

[2point6]

Scott,are you refering to the tech43 or whateveritscalled kit? I thought that thing smoked like a diesel?

Yes... Even though it smoked, it still ran for a couple years until James was killed in an accident. As far as I know it was the only one that didn't blow up and I believe it is still running today.

[honduh_head]

It would be a stroked GSR. Assuming you're using a GSR head, it would be the same thing as if you built an "LS/VTEC" using a GSR head. Or if you use a B16A/Type-R head, it would be a stroked "Poor Man's Type R". Sleeve and bore that thing and you can start approaching the 2.0L mark! ;)

I'm actually building this same motor right now, and it is totally doable.

ehhh not really...the deck heights between the ls motors and the gsr/b18c's are a little different....compression ratios will be way different with the same pistons and the rod/stroke ratio will be different if you use the same rods.

[I Hate Import Cars]

ehhh not really...the deck heights between the ls motors and the gsr/b18c's are a little different....compression ratios will be way different with the same pistons and the rod/stroke ratio will be different if you use the same rods.


I KNEW someone was going to chime in with this... And yes, you're right. But for the sake of argument I didn't think I needed to go into all that being that the difference in deck height between the GS-R/Type-R and the LS/B20 block is something that about 90% of the people on here wouldn't understand. But yes, you're right, and I PERSONALLY have accounted for that in my own build.;)

[2point6]

Actually, that is incorrect. The factory deck heights are:

B18C1/5-B16B = 212.39
B18A/B-B20 = 211.84

As you can see the B16/17 block is nearly 8mm shorter than the B18 blocks. The difference is actually the compression height of the several B series pistons that people use for different combos. This is why you can use a larger crank, shorter rod, and a custom piston in a b16.

IMO, unless you are trying to conceal the displacement of your B motor, there is really very little reason to do this. Use a larger block and go bigger with that!

[Crasy]

ok this is what im doing right now
GSR block with LS crank,ls egale rods, and ctr pistions
then on top of that i have i guess a built b16 head, springs,retainer, over size vavles, ITBS and all that shit lol
so with that being said. i would still have to sleeve and bore it out? or is that just if i wanted to go 2.0

[BADCHKN]

You cant use ctr pistons unless there bushed for a floating wrist pin.

[2point6]

You cant use ctr pistons unless there bushed for a floating wrist pin.

What? since when?

[I Hate Import Cars]

Actually, that is incorrect. The factory deck heights are:

B18C1 8.347
B18C5 8.347
B18A1 8.347
B18B1 8.347

B17A1 7.998
B16A3 7.998
B16A1-A2 7.998

As you can see the B16/17 block is nearly 8mm shorter than the B18 blocks. The difference is actually the compression height of the several B series pistons that people use for different combos. This is why you can use a larger crank, shorter rod, and a custom piston in a b16.

IMO, unless you are trying to conceal the displacement of your B motor, there is really very little reason to do this. Use a larger block and go bigger with that!

Are you SURE? I mean, I know you know your shit and I'm not trying to doubt you at all, I just remember when I was putting this build together on paper and I looked up the deck heights, they were different from a B18C1/5 and an LS, but from what I remember, after doing the math on it, the difference was so incredibly miniscule that it would make virtually ZERO difference. Maybe I'm wrong here, I'm just all curious now...

ok this is what im doing right now
GSR block with LS crank,ls egale rods, and ctr pistions
then on top of that i have i guess a built b16 head, springs,retainer, over size vavles, ITBS and all that shit lol
so with that being said. i would still have to sleeve and bore it out? or is that just if i wanted to go 2.0


Yes you would. No matter what parts you use, if you use stock parts for a 1.8 liter, you're going to have a 1.8 liter motor. All you've changed is the stroke of the motor, which took it from barely under 1.8 liters to barely over 1.8 liters. In order to reach 2.0 liters, you're going to have to sleeve it and bore it (or else hand make a block w/ 81mm cylinders and one hell of a stroker crank, and even then I'm not even sure you could do it. Either way it would run like a bag full of ass with the stroke you'd have to put on it. At that point, you might as well start running diesel!) I kid, I kid.

[mugenhatchie]

When i was running this setup I had ordered a custom set of pistons through JE with the wrist pin bores moved up 6mm. Here is the problem with this, the wrist pin is now running into the oil control ring grove which means...EXCESSIVE OIL CONSUMPTION. Now aside from that you could also get shorter rods to "make it work" but honestly it is not worh it. Stick with something more reliable IMO.

[honduh_head]

Actually, that is incorrect. The factory deck heights are:

B18C1 8.347
B18C5 8.347
B18A1 8.347
B18B1 8.347

B17A1 7.998
B16A3 7.998
B16A1-A2 7.998

As you can see the B16/17 block is nearly 8mm shorter than the B18 blocks. The difference is actually the compression height of the several B series pistons that people use for different combos. This is why you can use a larger crank, shorter rod, and a custom piston in a b16.

IMO, unless you are trying to conceal the displacement of your B motor, there is really very little reason to do this. Use a larger block and go bigger with that!

can you post a link to this, cuz from what i found those figures are incorrect.

[sr51crx]

yea

[2point6]

can you post a link to this, cuz from what i found those figures are incorrect.

You are correct. My information was wrong. I went back and verified myself. The correct information is this:

B18C1/5-B16B = 212.39 mm
B18A/B-B20 = 211.84 mm

[Crasy]

so how much would all that coast then?
having a stroker kit in a b18??
and does anyone have one?

[crxB20z]

that motor that scott built is still running today,but now it has a gsr head! it did smoke,but it was strong! that combo isnt the best for street use but u can make good hp with it

[hardmugen]

i like how the guy that started the thread never came back to it.

[explode13]

ok let me asked my question.

I want to put some ctr pistons on a b16a and put a gsr head question is what would be my compresion and can i spind this to 10k . Head will have valvetrain