H22 hesitation

[donger]

hey guys, i'm having some trouble. i swapped in an H22A into my 93 prelude Si. ive finally gotten everything running and stuff, but sometimes i'll get this bad hesitation like the car is losing power or something is pulling back on the car. i have new spark plugs, wires, and cap and rotor, so i know its not those. i thought it might have been the fuel pump but i've already replaced that and today i cleaned my EGR valve with some sea foam. this hesitation occurs throughout the whole power band and at all different throttle positions. i've also noticed that ive been getting really bad gas mileage, about 21 mpg the last two tanks. have any of you guys had this problem and were able to fix it? its driving me crazy.

[owequitit]

hey guys, i'm having some trouble. i swapped in an H22A into my 93 prelude Si. ive finally gotten everything running and stuff, but sometimes i'll get this bad hesitation like the car is losing power or something is pulling back on the car. i have new spark plugs, wires, and cap and rotor, so i know its not those. i thought it might have been the fuel pump but i've already replaced that and today i cleaned my EGR valve with some sea foam. this hesitation occurs throughout the whole power band and at all different throttle positions. i've also noticed that ive been getting really bad gas mileage, about 21 mpg the last two tanks. have any of you guys had this problem and were able to fix it? its driving me crazy.

Does it happen while the car is in VTEC too?

[H22POWERDEG]

ICM? Injectors running wrong resistance? MAPsensor?

[donger]

i think it does happen in VTEC too. when it hesitates VTEC still works, but it feels like there is supposed to be more.

i dont think its the ICM because i switched the unit out for a newer one. where and how would i measure injector resistance and what would cause different resistances?

[owequitit]

i think it does happen in VTEC too. when it hesitates VTEC still works, but it feels like there is supposed to be more.

i dont think its the ICM because i switched the unit out for a newer one. where and how would i measure injector resistance and what would cause different resistances?

I was thinking knock sensor, but it shouldn't be working in VTEC, so that shouldn't be it.

For injector resistances you need a Voltmeter, and the 2 long needle leads.

Simply pull the plug off and measure the resistance. You will have to look them up to see what they should be.

If you go to Hondahookup, they have a manuals section on there where you can get the Helms for your engine.

The biggest cause of different resistance, would be age and wear and tear, but they typically go for hundreds of thousands of miles before they go bad.

The Helms may have some other ideas for you too.

[donger]

do you mean that VTEC won't work if the motor is sensing knock?

[goslonomo]

replace ur injectors, i changed mine and got a tune, runs good, mine used to be sluggish in VTEC aome times almost like a rev limit, injectors and tune. or take ur injectors out and send them to RC they can clean them and match flow them, that could help, you injectors should be low impedence and peak and hold.

[H22POWERDEG]

I believe the injector resistance is 1.5 to 2.5 ohms

[H22POWERDEG]

do you mean that VTEC won't work if the motor is sensing knock?The vtec will work just not to its potential. the knock sensor is a piezoelectric sensor. senses knock from the block then retards your ignition. having a faulty kns can effect your engine that much. but .. if your kns is bad it should bring up the cel. code 15? i think off my head.

[owequitit]

Sorry it took so long to respond.

Well, I was actually wondering, because the knock sensor should be disabled by the ECU in VTEC (ignored is more accurate), because it isn't reliable.

I have seen them hesitate outside of VTEC and then work just fine once it hits. That can be attributed to the knock sensor sometimes, but if it is still doing it while in VTEC it is probably something else.

My recommendations in order of first to last would be:

1) Check the quality of your gas. Sometimes, cheap 91 will cause issues vs better 91 simply because 91 is the bare minimum for the H22.

2) Ignition components.

I have seen bad or cheapo plugs, wires, caps, and rotors cause hesitation issues. Personally, I only use OEM Honda, because other than a select few more expensive companies, most of what I have dealt with otherwise was crap.

Pull the dizzy cap off and check to see if the electrodes are worn or have carbon tracking. Then check to see if the rotor has extra wear or carbon tracking on it.

Check the resistance on the wires at normal operating temp, and it wouldn't hurt to check the resistance on the coil.

Those can also cause hesitation issues.

Make sure the plugs are the correct temperature, and are a good brand. I have had the best luck with Hondas by using OEM NGKs. There are usually 2 or 3 steps worth of plugs.

Standard, and then 1 step colder, and then 2 steps colder. (With NGK, a higher temp number is colder than a lower one i.e. 6 is colder than 5).

If everything else checks out ok, then try running one step colder plugs and see if that helps.

3) Timing.

Make sure the mechanical base timing is correct and that all the TDC marks line up correctly, where they should.

Then check the distributor timing with a timing light. On the H22 it should be 15 degrees Before Top Dead Center +/- 2 degrees with the service connector jumped.

Make sure you jump that connector, or the ECU can make timing changes, and you may not get an accurate reading.

If you don't have the right timing, it could cause issues too. Typically, the more advanced the timing, the more it is likely to ping, so that could be causing some of the issue.

4) Valve adjustment, or dirty components.

Poor valve adjustments, or engines in need of a valve adjustment, can make an engine run crummy, but it isn't as likely to cause a really bad hesitation, at least in my experience.

But it is a possibility.

You can also try running a can of Seafoam through the gas tank, and then use another can to feed it through a vacuum line to remove any other weird deposits.

Usually, though, Hondas won't have any weird deposits unless there is something else wrong.

5) You may also want to check various things such as electrical ground condition, battery voltage, alternator output etc.

If you were more specific about the RPM and load conditions that might help narrow it down some.

[donger]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

1) I've been running Chevron 91 octane which I'd say is pretty good so I'd rule that out.

2) I have new OEM plug wires, cap, and rotor. I got new NGK ZFR7F11s. I haven't checked the coil resistance yet. I will do that.

3) There was a little problem with timing. I changed the timing belt myself and made sure that nothing rotated at all. I also changed to a Fidanza 8 lb. flywheel. When I went to adjust the timing, I didn't see any timing marks, so I assumed it didn't have any because I had read that some flywheels don't have timing marks. I made my own using my stock flywheel as a reference and when I rotated the crank to get to the 15 degree mark I found TDC and 15 degree marks that were each like 3 teeth off. I tried to do the timing based on the flywheel's original marks but they were so far off that I couldn't advance the timing enough to reach it. I then timed it based on the marks I made and got it running ok.

I was worried that the marks were way off because something may have been put on wrong, but there is only one way to put on the flywheel and I am sure that nothing was rotated when I changed the timing belt. I asked a knowledgeable friend of mine about it and he said that the original marks must be off because the car would run like crap if I had screwed something up, and the car idles pretty smoothly.

4) I've been wanting to get around to doing a valve adjustment but haven't had the time. I figured it probably wouldn't be the problem.

I've cleaned the EGR valve but not the EGR ports with no luck. I don't know if I should go about trying to do the ports.

As for RPM and load conditions, it varies. It happens both when it's just me in the car and when I have people in the car. It sometimes happens when I start from a stop and get to about 1-1.5k rpm and it also happens when I'm cruising at 3k rpm or accelerating from that.

I'll have to check again to see if it still does it in VTEC. Because I know that VTEC still works no matter what, but I don't recall if its hesitating or not in VTEC.

[owequitit]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

1) I've been running Chevron 91 octane which I'd say is pretty good so I'd rule that out.

2) I have new OEM plug wires, cap, and rotor. I got new NGK ZFR7F11s. I haven't checked the coil resistance yet. I will do that.

3) There was a little problem with timing. I changed the timing belt myself and made sure that nothing rotated at all. I also changed to a Fidanza 8 lb. flywheel. When I went to adjust the timing, I didn't see any timing marks, so I assumed it didn't have any because I had read that some flywheels don't have timing marks. I made my own using my stock flywheel as a reference and when I rotated the crank to get to the 15 degree mark I found TDC and 15 degree marks that were each like 3 teeth off. I tried to do the timing based on the flywheel's original marks but they were so far off that I couldn't advance the timing enough to reach it. I then timed it based on the marks I made and got it running ok.

I was worried that the marks were way off because something may have been put on wrong, but there is only one way to put on the flywheel and I am sure that nothing was rotated when I changed the timing belt. I asked a knowledgeable friend of mine about it and he said that the original marks must be off because the car would run like crap if I had screwed something up, and the car idles pretty smoothly.

4) I've been wanting to get around to doing a valve adjustment but haven't had the time. I figured it probably wouldn't be the problem.

I've cleaned the EGR valve but not the EGR ports with no luck. I don't know if I should go about trying to do the ports.

As for RPM and load conditions, it varies. It happens both when it's just me in the car and when I have people in the car. It sometimes happens when I start from a stop and get to about 1-1.5k rpm and it also happens when I'm cruising at 3k rpm or accelerating from that.

I'll have to check again to see if it still does it in VTEC. Because I know that VTEC still works no matter what, but I don't recall if its hesitating or not in VTEC.

You most likely have at least a timing issue.

Hondas marks are very precisely machined, and I have seen a tiny bit of variance, but not more than a timing line width or so. It is negligible.

The true way to time the engine is to line up the crankshaft mark, the Cam gear marks, and the balance shafts marks with their respective marks or surfaces on the front of the engine.

Then, since the flywheel does only go on one way, it should already be lined up correctly.

Unfortunately, Fidanza's don't have any timing marks on them, so you have to make your own.

If everything on the front of the engine is good, then TDC on the flywheel should be lined up with the pointer on the block, so you would just need to make a white line.

Also, it isn't uncommon for a cam to pop forward or backward 1 tooth depending on which cam it is. That is why you have to get the stakes, and put them into the cams. Usually drill bits work well for it.

Also, a good way to verify it is to turn the engine 1 full revolution, and make sure all marks are still perfectly lined up.

Another reason I am pretty sure you have a mechanical timing issue is the fact that you mentioned the dizzy, and its adjustment.

Honda put approximately 12-15* of adjustment on either side of the 15* base timing.

So if everything is correct, and you are in time, when you set the dizzy to 15* it SHOULD be in approximately the middle of its adjustment.

If you have to slide it all the way to one side in order to get it to 15* BTDC, or close to 15* BTDC then you are most likely off 1 tooth.

If you slide it all the way to one side, and still can't get it close to 15* you are probably more than 1 tooth off.

I have never really bothered to explore the limits with a DOHC Honda, but with the SOHC, at 2 teeth it runs like complete crap, and at 3 teeth you are liable to start bending things.

It will be a severe pain in the ass, but I would pull the timing covers off, reset the engine to TDC, and see how everything lines up.

Unfortunately, when you drop the nose of the engine, the odd viewing angle changes the position that the cam marks APPEAR to be in. I usually use a straight edge on the Valve Cover gasket surface of the head in order to verify that they are indeed where they should be.

The crank and the balance shafts are pretty straight foward.

[donger]

Thanks for the reply. Would a timing issue only occur sometimes, with the the car running fine one second and then crappy the next?

I did make my own TDC and 15* marks on the flywheel. It was once I made those that I saw that Fidanza actually did make their own marks, but they were way off. I tried to time it based on their marks but it was impossible so I timed it based on the marks I made.

Here's a picture of my engine once I was finished with my timing belt. I'm pretty sure I had everything lined up right.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/rmdong/IMG_5168.jpg

[owequitit]

Thanks for the reply. Would a timing issue only occur sometimes, with the the car running fine one second and then crappy the next?

I did make my own TDC and 15* marks on the flywheel. It was once I made those that I saw that Fidanza actually did make their own marks, but they were way off. I tried to time it based on their marks but it was impossible so I timed it based on the marks I made.

Here's a picture of my engine once I was finished with my timing belt. I'm pretty sure I had everything lined up right.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/rmdong/IMG_5168.jpg

Timing issues will usually consistently cause a problem, but they can cause some other issues too.

I can't clearly see the timing marks in that pic.

The crank appears to be pretty close to correct, but the cam gears look slightly off from each other.

That could be the hose in the way, the angle of the pic, etc. so I can't really say without being able to clearly see the timing marks.

1 tooth off wouldn't be very easy to see in that pic.

[donger]

The cams aren't perfectly aligned. They were like a mm or two apart, but thats how it was when I took the belt off. I'm pretty positive that they weren't far enough apart to be 1 tooth off.

Would a timing problem be noticeable at idle? Because I haven't had any problems at idle at all.

[owequitit]

The cams aren't perfectly aligned. They were like a mm or two apart, but thats how it was when I took the belt off. I'm pretty positive that they weren't far enough apart to be 1 tooth off.

Would a timing problem be noticeable at idle? Because I haven't had any problems at idle at all.

Typically, if it is one tooth off, then idle will be ok. It is usually in the upper RPMs that you will notice a difference. With 2 cams, the symptoms are a little different.

The thing I don't like about DOHC Hondas is that even if the slack in between the gears is wrong, it can end up 1 tooth off.

Most likely, those 2 cam marks should be perfectly lined up, and the marks level with the VC gasket area NOT the ground.

Then assuming, the crank is on its mark, you would be in time.

All you can do is recheck it.

Was the old belt the original one? If it was JDM, I am assuming it is.

[donger]

Yea, I lined up the cam marks with the VC gasket area, not the ground.

The engine is JDM, so I'd also assume the old belt is original, but couldn't tell you for sure even if I wanted to.

So are you ruling out that the problem is any type of fuel delivery issue? I've been told that it could be injectors or fuel pressure regulator.

[BB1vtec]

The same thing happened with my h22, the problem was that the secondaries on my intake manifold were sticking open. All I did to fix it was spray silicone spray on the part on the outside of the manifold that controls the secondaries.

[owequitit]

I am not ruling out anything, but without being able to look it over, I am just trying to eliminate variables from most likely to least likely.

It isn't meant as an insult to your intelligence. Just trying to make sure all bases are covered.

As far as fuel delivery goes, it is a possibility, but knowing Honda's parts, I wouldn't expect them to be failing so soon.

The fuel system is easy to test though.

Check the resistance on the injectors, which will pretty much rule those out, check the fuel pressure, and check the filter.

It is possible that the injectors could be gummed or sticky, especially if they sat for a long time. They may also be dirty, as they often don't seal the fuel system up when they pull them.

You could take them off and send them to a place like RC to have them blueprinted and cleaned, or you could try to run a couple cans of Seafoam through the gas tank.

It may also be your ECU, if it is JDM, based on the fact that they are calibrated to run a higher octane, and that coupled with the lower octane here, and the higher compression over a USDM H22, may be causing the issue.

We had these same issues with some other JDM H22's and they weren't around long enough to get it worked out. They ended up being sold.

[donger]

I forgot to also mention that I've been getting pretty bad gas mileage since I did the swap and didn't know if it was related to the problem. With my H23 I was getting like 23-24 MPG with pretty easy driving, getting on it every once in a while. Lately I've been getting ~21 MPG driving pretty easy on it and only hitting VTEC a few times. I figured at least the same as the H23 if not a couple MPG better.

I don't know if this is related to the problem or if it helps deduce anything.

[owequitit]

That seems to be slightly lower than what you would expect for MPG, but the JDM ECU seems to get worse mileage.

I don't know if it tries to dump fuel to compensate for the knock sensor or what.

I get about 25MPG on my USDM H22, under approximately the same driving conditions.

A valve adjustment could account for some of that. I have seen a several MPG difference with a bad valve adjustment, versus a good one.

It could certainly be related to whatever is causing the hesitation too.

[CarBoNGSR]

Hi guys I'm new 2 azht.net lol well I've registered awhile ago and just been in and out looking for information and checking up on info for my cuzins teg. Lol I just turned 18 last jan. And recently just purchased a 5thgen prelude type sh n man I luv the car. I got a nice deal on it and it only had 1 owner and been serviced from honda all the time :) I got records.. Lol well n e ways I've got this lil problem also I've been searchin in hondatech and azht just yesterday.. So heas my problem. When I purchased the car everything ran fine no knocks no leaks no grinding no nothing felt brandnew for a 98 sh.. Motor ran strong and vtec poped off n tranny shifted like butter.... so yesterday I was gonna go get some chicken 2 eat lol.. N I was on the side of the 1-17 going north and like I threw out 3rd gear just punchin it. N once it hit 5500rpms no vtec !! ?? N I was stumped like why didn't it pop off? So I thought it was just a one time thing... so I get my chicken go home and like try it again but in 2nd gear threw it out no vtec. Shifted. 3rd threw it out .. Vtec pops but not as loud.. N not as strong either.. Ever since yesterday now my motor runs good just my vtec don't work correctly I guess. I'm not sure if its clogged orsomethings not opening right or what.. I saw this forum n thought this would be a perfect spot 2 post my problem. Any help would be nice n if u can shoot me into the right direction. Just purchased the car like last week . Worked fine.. N no I'm not like beatin on my car everyday lol usually I shift between 2500to 3000 rpms ever since I got it and only throw out the gears once in awhile lol I knw how 2 take care of my car n all used 2 drive a 98 teg back in ny for like a year .
took it to the races and everything.. Out hea. Kinda dead lol so any help would be great.. Oh and also when I got the lude from this dealer last week like n when I went with the guy on a testdrive n went to get gas he put regular unleaded in... n I knw these motors run premium 91 octane so.. Luckly it was less then half a tank. I use 91 now. Just to let u knw

[H22POWERDEG]

Noticed a few posts on this thread. So im posting my alum fidanza flywheel not installed yet pic. I tweeked it a bit to show the timing marks.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/norcalbmxr/IMAGE_00025.jpg