Whats your choice on lsvtec

[tegmister]

GSR head vs. B16 head.

what are the benifits and whats the best decision for a strong fully built head.


THE TOP CHOICE IS GSR AND BOTTOM IS B16. CAN A MOD PLEASE FIX. THANKS

[onefst91hatch]

i personally like the B16 head better!

[boostedrex]

i believe the grs will give u higher compression because there combustion chambers also have better cams

[RhdRicheeee]

voteddddddddddd

[onefst91hatch]

i believe the grs will give u higher compression because there combustion chambers also have better cams

right. but the factory B16 head will flow better than a factory GSR head and all you have to do is swap cams. and the combustion chamber is not very much smaller at all.

B16 chamber= 42.70cc
GSR chamber= 41.60

not a very big difference for the price in the head difference!! i dont think its worth it especially if you just gonna build it anyways!

[Chiodos]

voted

[F40]

LS/Vtec isn't worth the power gains IMHO.

[onefst91hatch]

LS/Vtec isn't worth the power gains IMHO.

explain?

[2poor2tune]

explain?


i have never done it myself. but i have never seen anyones last longer then a couple months. 6 monthes is the longest i have heard of one lasting. and that was a stock bottom end lsvtec

[Type - O]

i dont see how a ls/vtec wont last very long. just dont rev it like a b16. i dont imagine jsut changing the heads will cuase a mechanical failure. treat it like a LS and it will last awhile IMO. but i choose b16 cuz they flow better

[ILIKETODRIVE]

i dont see how a ls/vtec wont last very long. just dont rev it like a b16. i dont imagine jsut changing the heads will cuase a mechanical failure. treat it like a LS and it will last awhile IMO. but i choose b16 cuz they flow better

If you have an older LS block (I believe pre-98) and you don't swap out the oil pump and water pump for GSR parts...bad things happen. An LS oil pump can't keep up with how much oil a VTEC head needs.

Plus, it's a bold face lie if you say that you would keep your LS/VTEC build under 7200rpm's.

[2poor2tune]

Plus, it's a bold face lie if you say that you would keep your LS/VTEC build under 7200rpm's.[/QUOTE]


very true. who can resist. and whats the point of lsvtec of you arent going to rev past 7k. then you are just dumb because buying a vtec head and head gasket kit. along with oil sandwich plates and all that good stuff does not sound good for 170-185 hp sorry.

[Type - O]

If you have an older LS block (I believe pre-98) and you don't swap out the oil pump and water pump for GSR parts...bad things happen. An LS oil pump can't keep up with how much oil a VTEC head needs.

Plus, it's a bold face lie if you say that you would keep your LS/VTEC build under 7200rpm's.

well if you dont replace all that then you deserve to have you motor fail. i thought people were saying that as soon as you put a vtec head on it will break. but anything not built properly will fail

[tegmister]

^^^ werd up.

[90civicdx]

ill all depends on your plans if you plan on a turbo or nitrous i would say gsr the way the cumbustion champers are angle makes it harder for detination...b16 do flow better stock i have heard that the stock gsr manifold is the weak key replace with a skunk2 and your fine...a gsr will give you .3 more compression... for all motor purposes though definetly the b16 head just get it ported polished and through aftermaket valvetrian have yourself a type r head

[EatSleepJDM]

Ls/Vtec motors are wonderful if build right, 96+ integra, gsr, b20 oil pump and water pump, and arp rod bolts are a must, as well as gsr head studs.And most of the gasket kits come with the wrong headgasket, just get an oem ls one works perfectly, an Ls/vtec built right will reward you with happiness.

[4sd4dr]

Ls/Vtec motors are wonderful if build right, 96+ integra, gsr, b20 oil pump and water pump, and arp rod bolts are a must, as well as gsr head studs.And most of the gasket kits come with the wrong headgasket, just get an oem ls one works perfectly, an Ls/vtec built right will reward you with happiness.

Why would you want a B20 19 teeth water pump? B16, GSR ITR all have 22 teeth meaning they spin faster to reduce the possibility of cavatating (where water sits insteads of flows).

My take on LSVTEC is... again if done right is awesome. Dont cut corners and it'll last. If I could do it again, I wouldve went completely nuts with ARP. ARP mains, rod and headbolts. I would have swapped out the pistons for P30, PR3 or ITRs for a bump in compression or fuckit, I would have stuck Forged in and been set for a long time.

The Demise of my engine came when I bought a "new" oil pump from a member on HondaSwap and it 8-9k miles into it the pump failed when the bolts that hold the plate on backed out.

Good luck on your build bro.

If you have an older LS block (I believe pre-98) and you don't swap out the oil pump and water pump for GSR parts...bad things happen. An LS oil pump can't keep up with how much oil a VTEC head needs.

Plus, it's a bold face lie if you say that you would keep your LS/VTEC build under 7200rpm's.

Simons right, 90-95 LS's had part number 15100-PR4-A03 oil pump, whereas 96+ LS's (and B20, GSR, ITR and even B16's) had part number 15100-P72-A01 for their oil pumps. they're the same.

Anywho... I kept mine under 7200...

[JDM_SLO]

Josh props LS Vtec at collective has lasted quite a while and iev never herd of him having any problems... Iev also herd that the b16 head is capible of producing higher compression because it is milled lower then the GS-R stock... If i were you take the best of both worlds by using a b16 head with gs-r cams... if the suplies are out there.

[2point6]

There is a lot of ignorance in this thread. I build LSVTEC engines all the time. I could give a list of my customers who spin them to 8500+ RPM, Drive them daily, and have had them for years now.

I will clarify when I have a bit more time...

[tegmister]

please do scott. btw. i called the other day about arp hardware. pm me for pricing ... :)

[90civicdx]

like i said i have seen and know people that have ls/vtecs(most of them built by scott) that have lasted a very long time...do it right the first time and ask scott at collective racing 296 2223 he will point you in the right direction

[crxhfb16]

I have a built ls block for my lsvtec .40overPR3's arp rod and head bolts acl bearing gsr water and oil bump and as soon as i get more money golden eagle conversion kit. i hope it last a while its important to do a good breakin on the motor its hard to resist beating on it at first but it will pay off in the end.

[2point6]

right. but the factory B16 head will flow better than a factory GSR head

Not true... the GSR head actually flows better, it is the intake manifold that is the limiting factor. Change to a Skunk2 or AEBS manifold and you will be happy.

and all you have to do is swap cams. and the combustion chamber is not vey much smaller...

But the quench area is bigger which pull more heat from the piston allowing higher compression with less detonation.

[2point6]

...

[2point6]

i have never done it myself. but i have never seen anyones last longer then a couple months. 6 monthes is the longest i have heard of one lasting. and that was a stock bottom end lsvtec

That sir, is because you havent a clue.

[2point6]

... along with oil sandwich plates and all that good stuff does not sound good for 170-185 hp sorry.

What? You really should only pretend you are an expert about things you are familliar with.

[azteamextreme]

voted

[2point6]

Why would you want a B20 19 teeth water pump? B16, GSR ITR all have 22 teeth meaning they spin faster to reduce the possibility of cavatating (where water sits insteads of flows).

Actually you got it backwards... The larger 22 tooth water pump spins slower minimizing cavitation during higher revs. This combination is also good for a few extra HP.

[tegmister]

....

[2poor2tune]

That sir, is because you havent a clue.

maybe i dont but i can only go on my experience and what i have heard over and over just like you. i will get it all down some day. lol.

[2point6]

maybe i dont but i can only go on my experience and what i have heard over and over just like you. i will get it all down some day. lol.

You see... that is the problem right there. Experience is first hand, not hearsay.

[2poor2tune]

someday. lol. but in my experience wich is not so much ls/vtec hasent worked out so well. just my 2 cents

[Gen2ITR]

someday. lol. but in my experience wich is not so much ls/vtec hasent worked out so well. just my 2 cents

What, haven't stolen any ls/vtec's that were built properly?

My LS/VTEC was built almost 2 years ago...I drive the piss out of it (everyone here knows that). I Spin mine to 9000+, have a .030 overbore, a .025 mill off the head (B-16), medium sized cams, basic bolts ons, and I make roughly 185 at the wheels. Show me a STOCK GSR that puts down anywhere near that...

LS/VTEC's are great. If they don't last, its usually a fluke!

I have seen either head make good numbers on these setups. The GSR as a slightly different port angle, and the quench pads are ideal. BUT, I have to ask, If the GSR head is better, why did Honda use B-16 castings to make the Type-R?

[Grease Monkey]

B16!!

[2poor2tune]

What, haven't stolen any ls/vtec's that were built properly?

My LS/VTEC was built almost 2 years ago...I drive the piss out of it (everyone here knows that). I Spin mine to 9000+, have a .030 overbore, a .025 mill off the head (B-16), medium sized cams, basic bolts ons, and I make roughly 185 at the wheels. Show me a STOCK GSR that puts down anywhere near that...

LS/VTEC's are great. If they don't last, its usually a fluke!

I have seen either head make good numbers on these setups. The GSR as a slightly different port angle, and the quench pads are ideal. BUT, I have to ask, If the GSR head is better, why did Honda use B-16 castings to make the Type-R?

nope. havent. all i was saying was my opinion. shut the hell up already

[EatSleepJDM]

[QUOTE=4sd4dr;437908]Why would you want a B20 19 teeth water pump? B16, GSR ITR all have 22 teeth meaning they spin faster to reduce the possibility of cavatating (where water sits insteads of flows).

My take on LSVTEC is... again if done right is awesome. Dont cut corners and it'll last. If I could do it again, I wouldve went completely nuts with ARP. ARP mains, rod and headbolts. I would have swapped out the pistons for P30, PR3 or ITRs for a bump in compression or fuckit, I would have stuck Forged in and been set for a long time.

The Demise of my engine came when I bought a "new" oil pump from a member on HondaSwap and it 8-9k miles into it the pump failed when the bolts that hold the plate on backed out.

Good luck on your build bro.



that is what i ment to say is use a 22T water pump, i would love Scott to express his opinions on Ls/vtec and how one should be built to last and make power.

[EatSleepJDM]

Gen2ITR i believe Josh correct me if im wrong, but i have heard many great things about your car, i have not built an ls/vtec, but am on the start of two right now, and would appreciate any input you or Scott have, i have been reading and studying these for the past year though so i feel i am finally ready to take a crack at building one.

[2point6]

I wouldn't call myself the expert of LSVTEC engines, but I have built a lot of them. IMO, there is only one way to build them and that is... pay attention to detail.

I would never recomend putting a VTEC head right onto a LS block. I feel that several changes need to be made to ensure the longevity of this type of set up. Here is a very basic rundown on some of the stuff I do when building this powerplant:

*Change the pistons combination to get a more desireable compression ratio.
*Resize the rods and add ARP 8mm rod bolts
*Check the crank! Make sure the journals are round and that it is a standard size. Have it balanced and micro polished. A "turned"or "ground" crank will work, but absolutely needs to be re-nitrited.
*Align bore the block. This makes sure that all the jounals are straight and can be tailored to a desired size.
*Deck the block surface
*ITR oil pump
*ARP GSR head studs
*GSR timing belt and water pump.

All the listed stuff above IMO is neccessary to ensure the life of the bottom end.

Building the engine is a measure, assemble, disaasemble, measure again, and assemble again process. Some engines get even more attention, but I will save that for my customers. I am sure there are those who will contradict my methods, but I feel I have had exellent success with these engines due to the detail I put into every one.

I am not going to tell people what bearings to use and how to set bearing tolerances as some do things different. These steps set engine builders apart from one another. I have a set standard I use and it has proven to last long and make power.

As far as the head is concerned... get one, any one. I prefer the GSR head, so I can run a flatter piston to promote flame propagation. Less dome on the piston means it can be made lighter. There is also more quench area that pulls heat out of the piston. This translates to higher static compression possibilities with less detonation.
I would get a good set of valve springs and retainers, then have them installed correctly measuring everything: Install height, retainer to guide clearance, and open and closed pressures.

Those are basics...

[Gen2ITR]

Scott built my engine....I have been watching and learning, but he is the man to answer your questions, not me!

[4sd4dr]

Actually you got it backwards... The larger 22 tooth water pump spins slower minimizing cavitation during higher revs. This combination is also good for a few extra HP.

Thanks man, i wasnt sure if i had it correct or not. Plus i was didnt have a shit load of time.

[tegmister]

scott knows hhis shittt.

[Ack IN]

B16 B16 B16

[Colten79]

yeah i think the gsr.. the B16 heads are stock port and polished.. if you do that to the gsr its no comp...

[tegmister]

^^ is this a serious post?

[2point6]

It is obvious that most people posting in this thread have no clue, nor have they even built a LSVTEC before. LOL

[EatSleepJDM]

scotty im sure me and tegmister will be stopping by the shop pretty soon to pick up some stuff

[90civicdx]

shit i will be down there soon as well gotta get u to order me some factory honda stuff...thursday is the day...lmk if you got any gsr rods for sale also

[tegmister]

bump for shits and giggles.

[nuocmam]

b16

[*inFamous*]

i have never done it myself. but i have never seen anyones last longer then a couple months. 6 monthes is the longest i have heard of one lasting. and that was a stock bottom end lsvtec

Mine lasted for over a year boosted on 10psi with hours and hours of track time at PIR, and never blew up to this day, i ended up swapping a VTEC bottom end on it though after a year.

do it once, do it right.

[*inFamous*]

yeah i think the gsr.. the B16 heads are stock port and polished.. if you do that to the gsr its no comp...

The B16A and A3/A2 casts are NOT ported and polished from the factory. Only the ITR / P73 head is ported and polished from the factory.


Oh speaking of preference, the b16a or ITR head is my preference :)

[Revhard2003]

I wouldn't call myself the expert of LSVTEC engines, but I have built a lot of them. IMO, there is only one way to build them and that is... pay attention to detail.

I would never recomend putting a VTEC head right onto a LS block. I feel that several changes need to be made to ensure the longevity of this type of set up. Here is a very basic rundown on some of the stuff I do when building this powerplant:

*Change the pistons combination to get a more desireable compression ratio.
*Resize the rods and add ARP 8mm rod bolts
*Check the crank! Make sure the journals are round and that it is a standard size. Have it balanced and micro polished. A "turned"or "ground" crank will work, but absolutely needs to be re-nitrited.
*Align bore the block. This makes sure that all the jounals are straight and can be tailored to a desired size.
*Deck the block surface
*ITR oil pump
*ARP GSR head studs
*GSR timing belt and water pump.

All the listed stuff above IMO is neccessary to ensure the life of the bottom end.

Building the engine is a measure, assemble, disaasemble, measure again, and assemble again process. Some engines get even more attention, but I will save that for my customers. I am sure there are those who will contradict my methods, but I feel I have had exellent success with these engines due to the detail I put into every one.

I am not going to tell people what bearings to use and how to set bearing tolerances as some do things different. These steps set engine builders apart from one another. I have a set standard I use and it has proven to last long and make power.

As far as the head is concerned... get one, any one. I prefer the GSR head, so I can run a flatter piston to promote flame propagation. Less dome on the piston means it can be made lighter. There is also more quench area that pulls heat out of the piston. This translates to higher static compression possibilities with less detonation.
I would get a good set of valve springs and retainers, then have them installed correctly measuring everything: Install height, retainer to guide clearance, and open and closed pressures.

Those are basics...

:goodpost: Good Info Here!

You pretty much summed up my current bottom end build; do not forget if you use the ARP Rod Bolts that you have them pressed in correctly and pre-load checked.

Although I am in disagreement in the use of the GSR head; but like you said every engine builder has their own preference and way of doing things. Also for those who do not know static compression/detonation is also affect by deck height, stroke, bore and gasket thickness. You can get the same flame propagation as with a flat piston if you pay attention to the previously named. Also depending on what type of piston you use Cast, Forged, Coated the heat transfer rate will vary.

Peoples motors take a crap on them because from what I have noticed people do not pay attention to measurement/specs (like what 2point6 mentions in his post). Take your time and just do not slap something together and hope it works or hope you did it correctly. Also take the time and learn for yourself so you know exactly what went into your build and what the spec's are.

Once again good INFO 2point6 :clap:

[The President]

when it comes to an engine build there is a saying i know..."if it's fast and cheap, it's not reliable. if it's reliable and cheap, it's not fast. if it's fast and reliable, it's not cheap." I think the misfortune of most LSvtec engines comes when someone thinks LS Vtec is a cheap way around a motor swap. Figure on spending atleast 2k+ to get all the correct parts for the head swap... (my budget for my LSVtec is going to be about 2k) Ravi's been helping me with alot of good info.. if anyone else has good info for me feel free to pm me.

[*inFamous*]

theres always something more you can do to make it reliable. The more precautions u take, the better off you are.

2.5K imo :)

[Fox Vtec]

do u have any male thongs

[*inFamous*]

do u have any male thongs

BAN!!!!

[Acurazor]

Well the guy said a fully built head, so doesn't matter on the cams. I'm sure he'll have aftermarket cams. I'd say b16 head. If you want more compression get diff pistons. And as far as an LS/Vtec lasting, the one I built is still going strong after 2 years. Revved to 8k daily. It kicks the shit outta my GSR. Just gotta build it right. ;)

[1lowtacoma]

I wouldn't call myself the expert of LSVTEC engines, but I have built a lot of them. IMO, there is only one way to build them and that is... pay attention to detail.

I would never recomend putting a VTEC head right onto a LS block. I feel that several changes need to be made to ensure the longevity of this type of set up. Here is a very basic rundown on some of the stuff I do when building this powerplant:

*Change the pistons combination to get a more desireable compression ratio.
*Resize the rods and add ARP 8mm rod bolts
*Check the crank! Make sure the journals are round and that it is a standard size. Have it balanced and micro polished. A "turned"or "ground" crank will work, but absolutely needs to be re-nitrited.
*Align bore the block. This makes sure that all the jounals are straight and can be tailored to a desired size.
*Deck the block surface
*ITR oil pump
*ARP GSR head studs
*GSR timing belt and water pump.

All the listed stuff above IMO is neccessary to ensure the life of the bottom end.

Building the engine is a measure, assemble, disaasemble, measure again, and assemble again process. Some engines get even more attention, but I will save that for my customers. I am sure there are those who will contradict my methods, but I feel I have had exellent success with these engines due to the detail I put into every one.

I am not going to tell people what bearings to use and how to set bearing tolerances as some do things different. These steps set engine builders apart from one another. I have a set standard I use and it has proven to last long and make power.

As far as the head is concerned... get one, any one. I prefer the GSR head, so I can run a flatter piston to promote flame propagation. Less dome on the piston means it can be made lighter. There is also more quench area that pulls heat out of the piston. This translates to higher static compression possibilities with less detonation.
I would get a good set of valve springs and retainers, then have them installed correctly measuring everything: Install height, retainer to guide clearance, and open and closed pressures.

Those are basics...

theres a reason why your my babys dadddy:tongue:

[redwidow]

LS/Vtec rocks :clap: I am wating to fix some boost leaks and go back to dyno currently at 554 WHP 390 torque.. Just do it right.. and be carefull with ebay parts lol some parts are not that great of quality..

[4dr-LS/VTEC]

i've built about 7 ls/vtecs at my shop and so far none have come back with any problems. all are using the b18a1 block (1 rebuilt at the request of the customer, all others were never taken apart), b16 head milled to the max with stock internals, and stock b18 head bolts. only 1 has left the shop with stock b16 cams and the others left with at least b16 type-r cams or better. all have received jdm pr3 ecus (a couple were chipped to have a 9,500rpm rev limit). bolt-ons varied from customer to customer. and every single customer has been happy with their cars.

[Agent Smith]

i've built about 7 ls/vtecs at my shop and so far none have come back with any problems. all are using the b18a1 block (1 rebuilt at the request of the customer, all others were never taken apart), b16 head milled to the max with stock internals, and stock b18 head bolts. only 1 has left the shop with stock b16 cams and the others left with at least b16 type-r cams or better. all have received jdm pr3 ecus (a couple were chipped to have a 9,500rpm rev limit). bolt-ons varied from customer to customer. and every single customer has been happy with their cars.

Who are you & what shop are you with?
stock ls bottom ends simply CAN NOT take 9k rpms for any decent length of time...

[gcboy90]

my friend has an LS/VTEC with a GSR head, type r pistons and and eagle crank... only problem was that some UTI kids didnt check torque specs, so, naturally the end cap bolts on the crank were so over tightened that my friend spun a rod main bearing, when we tried taking off the bolts, some of the bolt heads came off.... it lasted him 4 months... and he didnt take very good care of it, nor was he easy on it in any way....

so i mean, its about the build... the block was sleeved, so that has something to do with it,.. im still amazed at how long the crank lasted with that tight of bolts on it..... take care of ur motor, build it right, it wont let you down

[2point6]

i've built about 7 ls/vtecs at my shop and so far none have come back with any problems. all are using the b18a1 block (1 rebuilt at the request of the customer, all others were never taken apart), b16 head milled to the max with stock internals, and stock b18 head bolts. only 1 has left the shop with stock b16 cams and the others left with at least b16 type-r cams or better. all have received jdm pr3 ecus (a couple were chipped to have a 9,500rpm rev limit). bolt-ons varied from customer to customer. and every single customer has been happy with their cars.

All stock bottom ends? SCARY! Hopefully this was a typo...

[4dr-LS/VTEC]

the name's Dallas and i work at Automotion on 19th ave and Bell rd. come check it out if you want. no typo, the oldest has been out since January in a white 2dr da integra.

[2point6]

the name's Dallas and i work at Automotion on 19th ave and Bell rd. come check it out if you want. no typo, the oldest has been out since January in a white 2dr da integra.

No disrespect intended Dallas, but do you feel that the stock bottom end is adequate? I am not doubting they hold together, but January isn't very long... I have an LSVTEC that has been running for over 7 years now. Thankyou for the invitation to check things out though.

I have a few other questions that I am sure others will want to know about as well, hope you don't mind. Again this is meant with no disrespect intended.

What is your feeling on the stock rod bolts?

How do you feel about the compression ratios with the larger combustion chambers of the VTEC heads with the stock pr4 pistons?

Are you suggesting that people just keep things stock and there will be no worries?

Is automotion a new shop?

[Spa-S2K-Killa]

I LOL'd at this thread. LS/Vtec is garbage no matter how you spell it. Put a damn GSR in there and call it a day, more reliability and these really cool things called OIL SQUIRTERS!!!!!! so you can actually relaize the power of vtec through RPM. Anyway I could care less if someone flames my post but LS/Vtec is absolute GARBAGE if not fully built. NUF SAID AND DONE!

[redwidow]

I LOL'd at this thread. LS/Vtec is garbage no matter how you spell it. Put a damn GSR in there and call it a day, more reliability and these really cool things called OIL SQUIRTERS!!!!!! so you can actually relaize the power of vtec through RPM. Anyway I could care less if someone flames my post but LS/Vtec is absolute GARBAGE if not fully built. NUF SAID AND DONE!

How much HP you making when the oil squirters kick in? I'm sure if you been in a LS Vtec you can feel a lil more power than a GSR and your wrong LS/Vtec is not garbage unless the builder is garbage then i'd agree. I had a NA LS/Vtec and ran great! oh and still do:)

[tokyospeedpros]

How much HP you making when the oil squirters kick in? I'm sure if you been in a LS Vtec you can feel a lil more power than a GSR and your wrong LS/Vtec is not garbage unless the builder is garbage then i'd agree. I had a NA LS/Vtec and ran great! oh and still do:)

Ill jump in on this one. Are you being serious. HP from the oil squirters. Do you even know what the oil squirter on a GSR or B16 were put there for? Not trying to be a dick but, that was not the most informed comment to make. I agree LZ/Vtec FTL they can make ok HP for about as much as a gsr and will have less reliability than a gsr. Just my .02. Im glad yours still runs, many don't.

[redwidow]

Ill jump in on this one. Are you being serious. HP from the oil squirters. Do you even know what the oil squirter on a GSR or B16 were put there for? Not trying to be a dick but, that was not the most informed comment to make. I agree LZ/Vtec FTL they can make ok HP for about as much as a gsr and will have less reliability than a gsr. Just my .02. Im glad yours still runs, many don't.

i was being sarcastic from the above comment if you have H beam rods oil squirters are not needed. I have been LS Vtec for years now.

lol Fine tunned is actually doing a B20 Vtec :clap: good choice

Mine still runs and many don't because short cuts or improperly done. But to each his/her own.

554 whp LS Vtec 390 wheel tq at 8K

[4dr-LS/VTEC]

if all you do is mill the head to the max, then yes, the bottom end is enough. if you try to raise the compression by doing more than that, i would suggest upgrading to a forged bottom end. and your right, 6-7 months isn't that long. i started at Automotion early January and was part of a build at the end of January. there were other ls/vtecs built the same way before i started, but that was the first one i helped build. the stock rod bolts are fine as long as you take care to torque them to specs, and don't go past 9k for longer than it takes to rev from there to 9.5k. any higher though, and i'd, again, suggest an upgrade. i think the compression ratios that we reach with the pr4 pistons are as high as anyone should go on stock pistons. and, guess what, any higher and you should change over to a completely forged bottom end. i'm not saying that just anybody can build an ls/vtec with stock components, and not wory about it. the person that builds it with stock components has to know what they are doing, has to have the patience, and has to have alot of experience with honda motors. Automotion has been open for about 3yrs now, but the owner/manager/mechanic has at least 5 more yrs of honda experience than that, and has been teaching me his tricks. we are mainly an import performance shop, but we also do domestic performance, general repair, bumper-to-bumper customization, jet boat builds, boat maintance, and boat repair. if you guys go to automotionaz.org, you might recognize the tangelo orange integra up in the corner. that is actually the owners car.

[4dr-LS/VTEC]

sorry for the long post. hopefully that answered your questions, and then some.

[cashflow]

are itr/ctr pistons a direct slip in on ls rods or do u have to machine them i bit

[Acurazor]

I'm pretty sure they have to be machined. But I do know it's possible, because I had ITRs in my ls/v

[cashflow]

on ls rods or aftermarket

[Honda_Sux]

its all about CR-Vtec bitchs

[redwidow]

its all about CR-Vtec bitchs

Yes! or B18's converted to B20B:)

[Acurazor]

on ls rods or aftermarket

The post says LS rods

[Gen2ITR]

WOW I cant believe there is still a discussion going on about this.... An LS/VTEC is an AWESOME way to make power with a little money. A $2500 build is NOTHING. Yes, you can get a GSR for around the same money, but lets face it, HOW MANY ARE LEGIT THESE DAYS? Plus, the GSR is a smaller displacement. Ask your girlfriend, SIZE MATTERS!!! You're talking about the difference of approx. 30hp for a VERY similar price.... WHAT IS LEFT TO DISCUSS? Spend around $7500 to $10,000 on a build, do the YEARS of research to find those extra 50 hp, and get all your ideas stolen by some kid on the internet.

I've got to ask, WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? Isn't it all about going fast? Didn't we all start going fast to get the girls, then say fuck it, going fast is still easier then figuring out girls?

If you dont want to go fast, dont worry about it. Get a GSR, be AVERAGE, and sleep soundly at night.

If you want to pull away from the average, spend a little money. Build an LS/VTEC, and dream of BOOBIES.

If you want to be a BALLER, build an 86mm Bseries, make a gazillion HP, and forget about sleep (cause you'll be banging all those Import Models!!!).

[ph8ed4life]

So you're not sleeping much anymore huh josh??

j/k, I would listen to whatever josh and scott have to say on this subject. Two of the only dudes I would take opinions and advice from.

[fmx_dbc]

How much does Automotion charge for a LS/Vtec install? just the basics like what you were saying

[Colten79]

if you were to leave the head stock... gsr.. but if you build it b16

[YewllowDA]

a newbie question
but b20 also applies same to the LS

[Gen2ITR]

So you're not sleeping much anymore huh josh??

j/k, I would listen to whatever josh and scott have to say on this subject. Two of the only dudes I would take opinions and advice from.


Thanks Dude! That really means ALOT!!! I might talk alot of shit elsewhere, but I try to keep the tech stuff honest.

On the last question:
B20's are a little weaker imo.
The sleeves are thiner and have less support.

That being said....People are making alot of powere out of these combos!
No replacement for displacement right!?

If you are looking for big power on the cheap, a B20VTEC isnt a bad idea.
Otherwise, if youve got some money, sleeve an LS, bore that to 84mm + and build similarly.

The LS has much more sleeve support. HELL Darton isnt even offering an option to sleeve the B20 anymore.

I think if you can get a LEGIT GSR head cheap it would be the better choice. Otherwise, a B16 head will be fine, mill it, flat bottom valve it, and port wisely.

B16 heads = cheaper!

[YewllowDA]

hmmm so the 84mm pistons of B20 wont hit the edges of combustion chamber that are meant for 81mm sized pistons?

[gcboy90]

hmmm so the 84mm pistons of B20 wont hit the edges of combustion chamber that are meant for 81mm sized pistons?

couldnt you cure this with shorter rods?

[kawgomoo]

an ls bottom end has the same piston speed as any other b18 at 9k so really the issue is not the rpm. its merely the refusal of the ls oil pump to keep up. the short deck height of the b16 and shorter throw makes it more suited for rpm... but what good is rpm really? you can either make tq, or hp. either is really just a measure of tq, but hp is what you get when you can only make a little tq so you spin the crap out of to make it look like it makes alot of power.

for the power levels most intend to achieve gsr or b16 head is going to make little to no difference. ive always like the gsr. the head is nice, the bottom end has the 3 center mains girdled, its got squirters for the skirts. all the trick race stuff youd expect to find in a high revving high output engine. b16 has none of this because it doesnt have to work so hard to spin quickly. but the power stroke on a 16 ends much sooner than an 18 because of this. so you have to spin it faster to do the same amount of work as an 18.... get it?

this is what transmissions are for. converting hp back into usable tq. the proper gearing will always net a faster ride than some horribly mismatched high rpm engine with tall gearing.

justy because a motor will turn 9k doesnt mean you have to drive around tapping the rev limiter all day every day.

[redwidow]

^^^ what?

B16's and gsr's have oil squirters..as for the rest of your post makes no sense

[1lowtacoma]

fuck ls vtec. weak for power.
Build a b20 like me and make over 220whp!
220whp in a 1900lb car. WEEEeeeeHhhaaaaa! street beast!

[xswingkidx]

fuck ls vtec. weak for power.
Build a b20 like me and make over 220whp!
220whp in a 1900lb car. WEEEeeeeHhhaaaaa! street beast!

x2
I have been running ls/vtec (B20 block w/ gsr head) for about 5 years now. The motor is currently in a crx that weighs just under 2000 pounds. No problems at all and really fun.

[The President]

I'll quote Ravi on this one " do it right, do it once" take the extra time and money to make the LS V and you won't regret it. cut corners and you'll be having some issues.

[*inFamous*]

i liked my LS/V but LOVE my ITR setup :) just more reliable and more power *shrugs*

[*inFamous*]

I'll quote Ravi on this one " do it right, do it once" take the extra time and money to make the LS V and you won't regret it. cut corners and you'll be having some issues.


Damnnn son you beat me to it!

True that, do it once, do it right.

[1lowtacoma]

i rather have my 85mm b20 than an ITR engine any day of the week.

[*inFamous*]

I do enjoy my 84mm ITR :)

[Gen2ITR]

hmmm so the 84mm pistons of B20 wont hit the edges of combustion chamber that are meant for 81mm sized pistons?

As long as the pistons dont stick out of the bore, you'll be fine.
The B20 head is the same as an LS
They don't enlarge the combustion chambers on those heads, Dont need to do it on the VTEC head.

Getting much bigger then 84mm tho, might consider it....

Scott is gonna be the best to answer this one....

[Gen2ITR]

fuck ls vtec. weak for power.
Build a b20 like me and make over 220whp!
220whp in a 1900lb car. WEEEeeeeHhhaaaaa! street beast!


Steve, I think this is slightly misguided.

In stock block form....Yes the B20 has a little more potential. No Replacement for displacement.

BUT!!!
The LS bottom end IS stronger. Willingess to spend some money will net you (in my honest opinion) the same power (or more) and better reliability.

The reliability of a B20 (spun past 9k) just isnt there. Those who have gotten any real time out of them should consider themselves lucky!

[kawgomoo]

maybe its your level of comprehension that is not allowing the sense to be made.
http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_Rod%20Length.htm
though this article is written around rod length maybe it will help your understanding of an i.c.e. then again maybe not.
if you think mixing and matching of stock parts is building an engine than more power to you... but probably not.

a long stroke engine is not reliable at high rpm because the piston speed it must maintain at that rpm. this is why you can turn a 16 so hard, the engine is square and the stroke is short. so you can turn it much faster before max. piston speed is reached and the thing rips itself apart. remember every revolution of the crank the piston has to start moving from a dead stop, accelerate nearly instantly to its max speed, stop nearly instantly, change direction and accelerate back to top speed and then come to a complete stop again. at some point this starting and stopping cannot happen and the steel wrist pin wins the battle and liberates itself from the piston.

my point being all b18's have the same deck height and nearly the same stroke. so reguardless what bottom end you use they will all live/function/perform the same. the exception being a gsr bottom end has girdles and squirters, ls and b20 do not. there is your difference. b16 overall displacement/capacity is limited because the deck is almost an inch shorter. b20 is merely a ls with big liners.... aftermarket sleeves make this fact null.



^^^ what?

B16's and gsr's have oil squirters..as for the rest of your post makes no sense

[redwidow]

maybe its your level of comprehension that is not allowing the sense to be made.
http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_Rod%20Length.htm
though this article is written around rod length maybe it will help your understanding of an i.c.e. then again maybe not.
if you think mixing and matching of stock parts is building an engine than more power to you... but probably not.

a long stroke engine is not reliable at high rpm because the piston speed it must maintain at that rpm. this is why you can turn a 16 so hard, the engine is square and the stroke is short. so you can turn it much faster before max. piston speed is reached and the thing rips itself apart. remember every revolution of the crank the piston has to start moving from a dead stop, accelerate nearly instantly to its max speed, stop nearly instantly, change direction and accelerate back to top speed and then come to a complete stop again. at some point this starting and stopping cannot happen and the steel wrist pin wins the battle and liberates itself from the piston.

my point being all b18's have the same deck height and nearly the same stroke. so reguardless what bottom end you use they will all live/function/perform the same. the exception being a gsr bottom end has girdles and squirters, ls and b20 do not. there is your difference. b16 overall displacement/capacity is limited because the deck is almost an inch shorter. b20 is merely a ls with big liners.... aftermarket sleeves make this fact null.


LS yeilds more torque period, why because of the stroke, you might be missling people in saying that LS are as not as good as GSR/B16's. Why because once you reving to 9k on any b series engine you mostlikely are upgrading Rod bolts and pistons. Oil squirters are used to cool piston skirts to keep temps down but are not needed if those upgrades are made. Girdles are not needed up to 800whp. Im currently at 631 whp and LS and reving to 9,200 k I can take it further but only tunned to 9,200.
I have no clue how your saying that the wrist pins "battle and liberates itself from the piston". So instead of spinning a rod bearing or something else your messing up a wrist pin? I hadn't heard of a wrist pin going out with out some other failure happening first.

So in turn if your doing a ls/vtec put some pistons and upgrade rods or rod bolts and a few other things. Just make sure its done correctly. Plenty of info on forums to do a step-by-step process.

Both B16 SI's/B18 Gsr's have oil squirters Gsr has a girldle, that fat bitch:devil1:

Stroke:LS<GSR<SI

yes LS and CRV have same crank and 3 mill difference on the block bore. 81mm vs 84mm

[*inFamous*]

wow there is alot of misinformation in this thread.

[kawgomoo]

lol misinformation is how i roll.

631 hp is no huge achievement. hp is merely some b.s. thought up by auto manufactures to help people understand the output of there engine. torque is what does the work. your engine makes a tiny amount of torque so you rev the shit out of in order to make that amount of tq several times a second. this is what leads to the high hp calculation.

if girdles werent needed till 800hp why in the hell would honda design it into there motor that was never designed to make anymore than 200hp? hmm.. longevity perhaps? maybe spinning amotor 9k 15 seconds at a time you dont see the need. go race one at 9k for 5 or 6 hours straight. see what that little bit of crank flex turns into. bearing dust.

if you exceed the ultimate piston speed you will generally rip the wrist pin completely out of the piston. at some point the piston can no longer handle the rapid deceleration and acceleration needed in every stroke...KABOOM the steel wrist pin gets torn clean out of the piston.

rods bolts are not the end all of high rpm. any good rod is designed around the rod bolt, not the other way around. upgrade the bolts all you want, but at some point the beam will stretch and the piston will slam into the head, or the rod will go limp and pretzel up.

i never said ls is a bad block. i said an ls block and a gsr block will make the exact same power because they have very similar bore and stroke. but the gsr has a girdle and squirters so i prefer that block over the ls. both will handle rpm the exact same because the mean piston speed is the same. the only issue with the ls engine failing at rpm is the ls substandard oil pump. that gsr girdle is there to prevent the crank flex which leads to bad harmonics which leads to shattered oil pump gears. b16 does not need a girdle for rpm because its a short deck, short stroke square engine.

[redwidow]

lol misinformation is how i roll.

631 hp is no huge achievement. hp is merely some b.s. thought up by auto manufactures to help people understand the output of there engine. torque is what does the work. your engine makes a tiny amount of torque so you rev the shit out of in order to make that amount of tq several times a second. this is what leads to the high hp calculation.

if girdles werent needed till 800hp why in the hell would honda design it into there motor that was never designed to make anymore than 200hp? hmm.. longevity perhaps? maybe spinning amotor 9k 15 seconds at a time you dont see the need. go race one at 9k for 5 or 6 hours straight. see what that little bit of crank flex turns into. bearing dust.

if you exceed the ultimate piston speed you will generally rip the wrist pin completely out of the piston. at some point the piston can no longer handle the rapid deceleration and acceleration needed in every stroke...KABOOM the steel wrist pin gets torn clean out of the piston.

rods bolts are not the end all of high rpm. any good rod is designed around the rod bolt, not the other way around. upgrade the bolts all you want, but at some point the beam will stretch and the piston will slam into the head, or the rod will go limp and pretzel up.

i never said ls is a bad block. i said an ls block and a gsr block will make the exact same power because they have very similar bore and stroke. but the gsr has a girdle and squirters so i prefer that block over the ls. both will handle rpm the exact same because the mean piston speed is the same. the only issue with the ls engine failing at rpm is the ls substandard oil pump. that gsr girdle is there to prevent the crank flex which leads to bad harmonics which leads to shattered oil pump gears. b16 does not need a girdle for rpm because its a short deck, short stroke square engine.

wow!! not a huge achievement 631 hp 438 ftlbs of TQ you must be kidding me. Whats your current Manufactured hp/TQ ratings? if you don't mind me asking.

On a ls vtec you change to a gsr/si/typer oil pump thats one of the givens.....

The OP is asking which head for the set up not bottom end. He/she is already choosen the right bottom end to do the job. If he/she would like to have oil squirters and a girdle he can otion to use the gsr block with LS crank and LS rods. I also don't think that the OP is looking for huge boost or really high #'s just something he can put together and get more bang for the buck.

[*inFamous*]

i never said who was spewing misinformation, merely stating how much their was present :)

[kawgomoo]

600 wheel was cool like 6 years ago. now its another drop in the bucket. last time greg holeman {sp?} was at our shop he made a very interesting statement. he said anybody can put a big turbo on an i4 and make 5-600 at the wheel. once you start approaching or break 700 wheel things really start to matter. almost any halfway decent setup will net 600's. after that you really need to know what you are doing.. little changes start really adding up or taking there toll. i built motors for bqqstfed back in the day when his 600whp 00si was considered the most powerful street legal dyno queen. of course it never went faster than 11.80's cause its a dyno queen. dont believe me? ask geoff at full race. it was one of there first mani's out there on his car. they happened to have family in va beach and flew out there and fixed his mani for him since the turbo wouldnt clear the block. shit that was a long time ago. i was employed by abacus racing at the time, machinist and dyno operator was the job. unfortunately that was back when eagle sleeves were having there dropping issues and the car would never stay together.

i understand what the kids asking. the simple answer is get whatever you can for as cheaply as you can. they will all work just fine for his needs. ls/vtec white plug b16 head and some high comp pistons makes roughly 180's at the wheels. and thats one cheap ass build. you can get a crix into the 12's with that.

shad ran a race only bubble hatch, bone stock gsr, hondata, obx junk mani, saab t3 turbo, 11psi boost made 299 at the wheels ran best of 10.80's. then he got the bug, pulled it all apart full stand alone 600+ whp could never go faster than 11's. always breaking shit, went through trannies like it was his job.

some day people will understand its not how much hp you have. its how you apply it and get it to the pavement. that big motor was twisting up the chassis so bad broke the windshield, car would never hook up. got so frustrating and expensive breaking parts he gave up on it and went n/a.

hp numbers/claims are for bench racers. any dyno op will tell you they can make the dyno read whatever hp you want it to. hp number from one dyno to another are not comparable as the method of data aquisition is not the same. i could give a damn about 631hp. i grew up, street racing got old. now we take 2000lbs cars with twice your power and tq and jump them over shit, or run 100mph across 3 foot rollers. little more exciting than making a pass, changing your tranny, make a pass change an axle, make a pass change your motor.

i will always love hondas, but for now these are more fun... i love posting this vid.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CvK4ZDcwoFw

[92LUDAvtec]

ok u guys want truth about ls/vtec? fucking bad ass motor bro but again if built right if you u want to talk to sombody who specializes in ls/vtec builds let me know. he is my mechanic and he has a 900 hp ls/vtec in his showroom give him a call he does it all and tell him ethan sent u.
auto motion ask for brian(602)487-4290

[xxbrowndragon]

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