Compression beast... or Boosted monster?

[J2daM]

quik question... in the interest of being fast the cheapest, quikest, most painless way... do u build a compression beast or a boosted monster... examples..

A nice b20 block, b16 head, with ctr pistons, and the head shaved, pushing like a nasty 13.4:1 compression...
OR
a ctr block, itr head with bigger valves and spring and stems, with a tdo4 turbo pushing about 12-16 psi??

Feel free to gimme different combos or frankensteins that u think would work better in favor of compression or boost..

[I Hate Import Cars]

i'll just say this. building power in a n/a application is ANYTHING BUT easy. DOABLE, just not easy. just a thought. :)

[I Hate Import Cars]

i'll just say this. building power in a n/a application is ANYTHING BUT easy. DOABLE, just not easy. just a thought. :) .

[onefst91hatch]

i'll just say this. building power in a n/a application is ANYTHING BUT easy. DOABLE, just not easy. just a thought. :) .

X2. just buy a nice turbo kit (AFI, FULL RACE, PEAK BOOST) and get it tuned and youll be set!

[I Hate Import Cars]

X2. just buy a nice turbo kit (AFI, FULL RACE, PEAK BOOST) and get it tuned and youll be set!

Seriously, your best bet factoring in cost, time, and ease of operation. It's done once and it's done.

[J2daM]

Seriously, your best bet factoring in cost, time, and ease of operation. It's done once and it's done.

i see, but i d k... down here i guess where i live, its a whole lot cheaper to build a compression beast... for instance, b20 block (200 bucks) b16 head, maybe 500, getting the head shaved, 40-80 bucks... and drop a ctr tranny for another 400 bucks, and ur at about 12:1 compression with good rings... and boost is a little more expensive, and i dont like the idea of peicing together a turbo kit... i love boost, dont get me wrong... but can a high compression car, stay up there with a boosted car at descent psi?? ive seen it happen at half the price...

[imm0rtal]

Seriously, your best bet factoring in cost, time, and ease of operation. It's done once and it's done.Well he's done once if he builds the block to handle the boost. Otherwise he's done the first time until he throws a rod, spins a bearing, or cracks a sleeve.

[J2daM]

Well he's done once if he builds the block to handle the boost. Otherwise he's done the first time until he throws a rod, spins a bearing, or cracks a sleeve.
tru tru...

[I Hate Import Cars]

Well he's done once if he builds the block to handle the boost. Otherwise he's done the first time until he throws a rod, spins a bearing, or cracks a sleeve.

very true. and that's definately something to consider. I'm sorry I left that out. I will, however, be the first to admit that, while I'm FAIRLY knowledgeable about both setups, I've only BUILT all motor setups before. I'm just tryin to offer an opinion here.

[J2daM]

Have u ever built boost ready setups??

[I Hate Import Cars]

me? or anyone. I personally have only HELPED build ONE. it was an 8:1 cr, 518 inch chevy big block running 24 poundson a Pro Charger. little different game than you're into, but same basic principles...

[J2daM]

me? or anyone. I personally have only HELPED build ONE. it was an 8:1 cr, 518 inch chevy big block running 24 poundson a Pro Charger. little different game than you're into, but same basic principles...

lol, yea its a little different...whats more reliable in ur opinion... daily driver status tho...

[I Hate Import Cars]

honestly, if built right, either can be just as reliable as the other. just do yourself a favor and decide EXACTLY what you're going to do, THEN build a motor according to that plan. reliability issues come from using parts not intended for the use they are being put to. for example, I just built motor that's a fair amount of compression, (10.7:1), so i could run on pump gas on the street, but knew I wanted more power than that without dealing with turbo/supercharger, so I put the hardest chrome moly rings I could find in it, (Total Seal Hell Fire rings) on a forged bottom end, and then set up the manifold for direct port nitrous. Now had I set up the nitrous and used basic rings, even with forged pistons, I would have over heated the rings and made problems. But I didn't. I decided what my plan was and stuck to it. And now it's as reliable a motor as you can get and can still run nitrous just fine. does that help? Or even make sense?

[*inFamous*]

<3 boost. Trust me, once u boost, u dont rarely go back, unless u do it like shit the first time, then you live in phear of your car!

[J2daM]

yea i guess that makes sense... i love compression beasts, but i hate having a turbo car next to me smoking me on the highway because his turbo spooled! ya know? but turbo takes away the comment i love using.. "im all motor baby!" but boost is a beautiful thing... im a big fan of both...

[J2daM]

<3 boost. Trust me, once u boost, u dont rarely go back, unless u do it like shit the first time, then you live in phear of your car!

lol... yea i love boost too.. i think its the BOV that gets me... lol

[taggart_lumpy]

turbin charger

[Tage]

i see, but i d k... down here i guess where i live, its a whole lot cheaper to build a compression beast...
Yuma is a booming import market?

for instance, b20 block (200 bucks) b16 head, maybe 500, getting the head shaved, 40-80 bucks...
Agree those are typical prices these days.

and drop a ctr tranny for another 400 bucks,
The tranny doesn't have anything to do with the motor build but I'd be surprised if you could find a CTR tranny for $400, unless you don't mind buying stolen parts.

and ur at about 12:1 compression with good rings...
Assuming you meant to say CTR pistons, they don't make CTR pistons in 84+mm sizes for a B20 build. They do make some cast knock off ITR pistons which are less expensive but I'd say high compression pistons and rings will be closer to $500-600.

and boost is a little more expensive
I'm an all motor guy but I'll be the first to admit that boost is cheaper if you want to make over 220WHP.

With an NA build there's a lot of stuff you left out:

Block $200
Pistons/rings $600
Rods $350 (or pay about $150-200 to get stock rods shot peened, rod bolts upgraded and piston pins pressed on aftermarket pistons)
Head $500
Cams $700 (<--if you're going to go NA and want to break the 200WHP barrier you need something better than ITR cams)
Cam gears $200
Bearings $200 (<-- OEM Honda is the only way to go
Headgasket $80
ITR or better intake manifold $100
64+mm TB $200
Upgraded valvetrain $350 (are you going to trust 9000rpm to mystery springs/retainers on azht?)
DC JDM 4-1 header $360 (cheapest decent B-series NA header)
....

So you're looking at $3600'ish right there with at least a couple weeks to build and get all the parts machined to get you about 200-220WHP and that doesn't include items like engine management or tuning. I didn't include those prices because you'll need those with a turbo setup (just as you would for stuff like a tranny, mounts, exhaust, etc.).

Compare that to let's say a nice turbo setup for $2500. Bolt that thing to a stock LS motor ($300-500) and make 250+whp. The actual turbo install can be performed in one day.

If your original goal is fast and you're comparing an NA B-series to boost we're talking 200-250WHP range. The turbo will be faster, cheaper and quicker to build.

[J2daM]

Yuma is a booming import market?


Agree those are typical prices these days.


The tranny doesn't have anything to do with the motor build but I'd be surprised if you could find a CTR tranny for $400, unless you don't mind buying stolen parts.


Assuming you meant to say CTR pistons, they don't make CTR pistons in 84+mm sizes for a B20 build. They do make some cast knock off ITR pistons which are less expensive but I'd say high compression pistons and rings will be closer to $500-600.


I'm an all motor guy but I'll be the first to admit that boost is cheaper if you want to make over 220WHP.

With an NA build there's a lot of stuff you left out:

Block $200
Pistons/rings $600
Rods $350 (or pay about $150-200 to get stock rods shot peened, rod bolts upgraded and piston pins pressed on aftermarket pistons)
Head $500
Cams $700 (<--if you're going to go NA and want to break the 200WHP barrier you need something better than ITR cams)
Cam gears $200
Bearings $200 (<-- OEM Honda is the only way to go
Headgasket $80
ITR or better intake manifold $100
64+mm TB $200
Upgraded valvetrain $350 (are you going to trust 9000rpm to mystery springs/retainers on azht?)
DC JDM 4-1 header $360 (cheapest decent B-series NA header)
....

So you're looking at $3600'ish right there with at least a couple weeks to build and get all the parts machined to get you about 200-220WHP and that doesn't include items like engine management or tuning. I didn't include those prices because you'll need those with a turbo setup (just as you would for stuff like a tranny, mounts, exhaust, etc.).

Compare that to let's say a nice turbo setup for $2500. Bolt that thing to a stock LS motor ($300-500) and make 250+whp. The actual turbo install can be performed in one day.

If your original goal is fast and you're comparing an NA B-series to boost we're talking 200-250WHP range. The turbo will be faster, cheaper and quicker to build.

250+whp on a boosted lS??? please explain that... oh an i meant the ITR pistons and not the CTR... my bad... CTR piston do have more compression tho...

[mixxxwell]

ive seen and built b20's that make 220+ easy on stock sleeves. sleeves arent the best but it works. 220 in the right chassis can get you into 12's. what you can do is:

b20 block
RS-machines 84.5mm ITR style pistons
LS/CRV rods shotpeened
balnce the whole rotating assembly
ARP head studs
ARP rod bolts
ported head
victorx manifold ported to 70mm
s2s2 cams
70mm TB portmatched
310 injectors or 370's
valvetrain
and a decent 4-2-1 header such as rage/hytech and etc..
as for the tranny id personally go with a ITR 4.7 tranny and if its out the budget go with a b16

and GET THE CAR TUNED

heres a graph of my friends b20vtec *built by EUGENE at pro-street* very fast car. and yes its on PUMP GAS

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f318/acydphryck/JoesDyno800x600.jpg

or if you cant afford all this H2B FTW:p

[Tage]

J2daM,
I think Ravi (IntegraLS) had a boosted LS that was pretty close to stock and it make quite a bit more than 250whp. Hell the Drag Gen II kits over 5 years ago made around 250whp on stock LS motors. Those kits are considered inferior to the kits today too.

Mixxxwell,
As far as making over 220whp on a B-Series. It can certainly be done but if he's looking for "...cheapest, quikest, most painless...", NA is not the way to go. Your buddies B20 I'm sure was well over $5000 as was my NA build and I'm sure it took longer to piece together than what it would take to bolt on a turbo system. I love NA, it's just not a cheap and fast way to make power. I currently hold the NA B-Series record on Locash's Dynapack. I'd be curious how your buddy's setup compares to mine on the same dyno. Is that graph above on a Dynojet (which read about 8% higher according to Joe)?

[mixxxwell]

its on a dynojet. i always thought dynapack reads higher kuz theres no load. that b20 wasnt that exspensive. its still stock sleeves and just eagle rods. EUGENE built the motor and tuned it. eugene is from MTV " im street race" hes the one with the 4dr integra

[J2daM]

.... mix, i like the example u thru.. very clean... what was the compression ratio on that motor? i d k, ive always thought, 1/8 and 1/4 wise, compression was always better... simply because turbo has a thing called LAG.. turbo lag is a bitch on the track.. if u can get off the line and have a strong first and second gear, all the top end in the world isnt gonna help catch a quik car that jumped 2 cars on u out the dig... but what ur saying does make sense... so far it looks like boost is cheaper and more painless... not to mention, less time consuming... any one disagree with my friend TAGE here?

[Tage]

EDIT: You've got it backwards. Dynojet's read the highest. Dynopack and Mustang dyno's read the lowest.

Stock sleeves have nothing to do with making more less power. 84.5mm is still 84.5mm regardless of how thick the sleeves are or how well they are supported. Sleeving the block is simply some additional insurance in the event you didn't tune perfect, you get some bad gas, or it's really hot, etc. If you minus the cost of sleeving the block I bet if your buddy added up the costs it would be pretty dang close to $4K still.

I don't drag race anymore (gave that up in 1998! Yes I'm old). I only autox, time trial and time attack now (i.e. Circuit/road racing) so the characteristics of a turbo setup suck for the type of racing I do, but if I was to be a drag racer it would be turbo all the way! The beauty of drag racing is you can rev to whatever RPM you want (to build boost) before you start moving so once you have the technique down I'd be surprised if an NA car could take a turbo car off the line. As long as you're not making 400+HP I hear the technique with true drag slicks is simply to hold the tach at redline, sidestep the clutch, hang on and then start shifting through the gears.

[J2daM]

EDIT: You've got it backwards. Dynojet's read the highest. Dynopack and Mustang dyno's read the lowest.

Stock sleeves have nothing to do with making more less power. 84.5mm is still 84.5mm regardless of how thick the sleeves are or how well they are supported. Sleeving the block is simply some additional insurance in the event you didn't tune perfect, you get some bad gas, or it's really hot, etc. If you minus the cost of sleeving the block I bet if your buddy added up the costs it would be pretty dang close to $4K still.

I don't drag race anymore (gave that up in 1998! Yes I'm old). I only autox, time trial and time attack now (i.e. Circuit/road racing) so the characteristics of a turbo setup suck for the type of racing I do, but if I was to be a drag racer it would be turbo all the way! The beauty of drag racing is you can rev to whatever RPM you want (to build boost) before you start moving so once you have the technique down I'd be surprised if an NA car could take a turbo car off the line. As long as you're not making 400+HP I hear the technique with true drag slicks is simply to hold the tach at redline, sidestep the clutch, hang on and then start shifting through the gears.

lol, that works i guess... but there goes the life of ur motor! redline, and then dump the clutch... that kicks the reliablility out the door, dont u think?

[*inFamous*]

Tage is correct, i made 262whp and 215lb/ft of tq on a bone stock LS using a 57 trim .63a/r T3/T04E turbine on about 8psi. Log manifold, small intercooler, 450cc DSM injectors, Fuel pump, and hondata. That was easy shiz. That setup cost about 3500 bucks as I bought everything brand new.

Thats pretty decent HP / $ if u ask me and that motor lasted forEVER and i even LS/VTEC'd it later on and made 313whp on an Exact Dyno with 9psi :)

[*inFamous*]

EDIT: You've got it backwards. Dynojet's read the highest. Dynopack and Mustang dyno's read the lowest.

Stock sleeves have nothing to do with making more less power. 84.5mm is still 84.5mm regardless of how thick the sleeves are or how well they are supported. Sleeving the block is simply some additional insurance in the event you didn't tune perfect, you get some bad gas, or it's really hot, etc. If you minus the cost of sleeving the block I bet if your buddy added up the costs it would be pretty dang close to $4K still.

I don't drag race anymore (gave that up in 1998! Yes I'm old). I only autox, time trial and time attack now (i.e. Circuit/road racing) so the characteristics of a turbo setup suck for the type of racing I do, but if I was to be a drag racer it would be turbo all the way! The beauty of drag racing is you can rev to whatever RPM you want (to build boost) before you start moving so once you have the technique down I'd be surprised if an NA car could take a turbo car off the line. As long as you're not making 400+HP I hear the technique with true drag slicks is simply to hold the tach at redline, sidestep the clutch, hang on and then start shifting through the gears.


Tage i think you have some of the baddest ass N/A cars in az.

And another point is your style of racing, liek tage says, hes does RR and AutoX. I do that as well and to get my turbo integra to RR well, it cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than if i had gone N/A as the parts list got very expensive and long haha!

[onefst91hatch]

lol, that works i guess... but there goes the life of ur motor! redline, and then dump the clutch... that kicks the reliablility out the door, dont u think?

not your regular redline you have a 2 step/launch rev.

[J2daM]

not your regular redline you have a 2 step/launch rev.

Well if u two step a high compression motor on the launch, im pretty sure ur taking a turbo car out the dig... i have a stock integra, and i dust forced induction cars (cobalts, srt4, eg's, eclipses) off the line all day, its top end and acceleration that kills me... i jus dont see a car with 12.5:1 comp, getting walked off the line by a LAGGIN turbo car...

[onefst91hatch]

Well if u two step a high compression motor on the launch, im pretty sure ur taking a turbo car out the dig... i have a stock integra, and i dust forced induction cars (cobalts, srt4, eg's, eclipses) off the line all day, its top end and acceleration that kills me... i jus dont see a car with 12.5:1 comp, getting walked off the line by a LAGGIN turbo car...

if the turbo kit is done right it wont have lag and if it does it will be minimal. and you cant compare a boosted honda to a damn cobalt or SRT piece of shit.

[*inFamous*]

hehe exaclty, i can two step my integra at about 3800rpm and that puts me at around 220ft/lb of tq off the line along with a nice 200hp. i've snagged some nice 2.1 60fts on street tires and eaten plenty of nice n/a motors off the line.

Its alot on the setup and the driver to ya know.

[onefst91hatch]

^^^exactly!!!!

[Shiznit]

a boosted monster will be cheaper, less painful, and quick (not to be confused with quickER)

[*inFamous*]

less painful, that can be debated :)

[ILIKETODRIVE]

i have a stock integra, and i dust forced induction cars (cobalts, srt4, eg's, eclipses) off the line all day

You "dusted" the drivers of those cars, not the cars themselves.

[tegmister]

^good post , btw who says "dust" anymore haha.

[EatSleepJDM]

with either set up you are going to need some serious tuning,if your planing on making 200/220+, and you dont really want a streetable car to be over 12.1 cr, there will be up's and down's which ever way you go, i personally love n/a cars, especially honda's. And the last thing you want to do is to jump right into something, without knowing what your doing, take the time to read and ask questions, always try and do things right the first time.

[*inFamous*]

with either set up you are going to need some serious tuning,if your planing on making 200/220+, and you dont really want a streetable car to be over 12.1 cr, there will be up's and down's which ever way you go, i personally love n/a cars, especially honda's. And the last thing you want to do is to jump right into something, without knowing what your doing, take the time to read and ask questions, always try and do things right the first time.

Excellent post my friend.

[EatSleepJDM]

i would have plenty more input but i am really lazy and dont want to type out a whole page, and thank you

[J2daM]

You "dusted" the drivers of those cars, not the cars themselves.

yea, very tru, they were pretty bad drivers, but in general, ive never seen one of those cars get off the line without spinnin for a day and a half, or bogging like the started in second gear...

[J2daM]

a boosted monster will be cheaper, less painful, and quick (not to be confused with quickER)

Well said my friend

[J2daM]

hehe exaclty, i can two step my integra at about 3800rpm and that puts me at around 220ft/lb of tq off the line along with a nice 200hp. i've snagged some nice 2.1 60fts on street tires and eaten plenty of nice n/a motors off the line.

Its alot on the setup and the driver to ya know.

U have any pics of this integra... it sounds clean..

[J2daM]

So far, im liking all the input everyone has, both arguments are strong, im kinda leaning toward the boosted side now.. is that bad?

[I Hate Import Cars]

with either set up you are going to need some serious tuning,if your planing on making 200/220+, and you dont really want a streetable car to be over 12.1 cr, there will be up's and down's which ever way you go, i personally love n/a cars, especially honda's. And the last thing you want to do is to jump right into something, without knowing what your doing, take the time to read and ask questions, always try and do things right the first time.

well said. I would even go as far as saying 11:1-11.5:1 just because I'm ASSUMING This car is going to spend most of it's life in az, and have you noticed how hot it is here at times? I'd imagine you could get into some problems with detonation with that much compression. Maybe with aluminum motors you can get away with that, I don't know. I know on our iron big blocks that we run on the street, if we work over about 11.5:1 (That's only with aluminum heads) we start running into serious problems in the AZ heat. Just a thought, since you're talking about a "daily driver" status car here.

[Tage]

Just for reference, on one of my builds, I ran 12.43:1 CR with 91 octane. I drove the car to work everyday for a full year which as 98 miles round trip (about 500 miles per week just going to work and back) during rush hour traffic most of the time. Then on the weekends I would drive the car to FIR or even Tucson, autox it and then drive home. The 2nd summer I got a 2nd car so I didn't have to do that anymore but the car did fine. Now it did have a good amount of head work with lots of quench which raises compression at the same time as reducing detonation but the point is it's "possible".

[*inFamous*]

Just for reference, on one of my builds, I ran 12.43:1 CR with 91 octane. I drove the car to work everyday for a full year which as 98 miles round trip (about 500 miles per week just going to work and back) during rush hour traffic most of the time. Then on the weekends I would drive the car to FIR or even Tucson, autox it and then drive home. The 2nd summer I got a 2nd car so I didn't have to do that anymore but the car did fine. Now it did have a good amount of head work with lots of quench which raises compression at the same time as reducing detonation but the point is it's "possible".

For n/a, your the man to go to my friend. Your builds are awesome.

[J2daM]

Just for reference, on one of my builds, I ran 12.43:1 CR with 91 octane. I drove the car to work everyday for a full year which as 98 miles round trip (about 500 miles per week just going to work and back) during rush hour traffic most of the time. Then on the weekends I would drive the car to FIR or even Tucson, autox it and then drive home. The 2nd summer I got a 2nd car so I didn't have to do that anymore but the car did fine. Now it did have a good amount of head work with lots of quench which raises compression at the same time as reducing detonation but the point is it's "possible".

damn dog, ur pretty sick at building motors then huh?

[EatSleepJDM]

yes you can build a motor that will last if built CORRECTLY that is over 12.1 cr, but with a novice it should be kept at 12.1, or under for reliability sake. i know tage has built some pretty nice motors, but he is experienced, a beginner should take the time to read and learn, and will have a better chance in building a motor that will be reliable.

[J2daM]

when u build higher compression does ur redline get higher as well?

[Tage]

Transmissions are my specialty but I've built a few motors. I'll admit that I've jacked up a couple builds but that's part of experience and how you learn (from your mistakes) right? :)

Compression isn't directly related to redline. The redline of the motor is dertimined by several things:

1. Valve train strong enough to keep the valves from floating (anything over 8K rpm on a stock VTEC head with stock cams you'll want to upgrade the valvetrain, even more true lower if you run bigger cams)

2. How much reliability and how long do you want the motor to last (the higher the redline the more likely it will be you'll spin a rod bearing and there's additional wear the higher the RPM you go)

3. The engines ability to flow enough air to the support the amount of fuel needed to continue to make power

4. Probably a couple other minor things I'm forgetting at the moment.

If you want a really high redline where the engine is still making power you're going to need big cams. Big cams typically need lots of compression to work their best, hence the reason you see big compression and high redlines going hand in hand.

[EatSleepJDM]

very well put exactly how i would have put it, im just to lazy to type that much, and unfortunetly you are at a much higher risk of destroying a motor when you are a beginner, it pays off in the long run though to take the time to learn, and ask people questions

[I Hate Import Cars]

Transmissions are my specialty but I've built a few motors. I'll admit that I've jacked up a couple builds but that's part of experience and how you learn (from your mistakes) right? :)

Compression isn't directly related to redline. The redline of the motor is dertimined by several things:

1. Valve train strong enough to keep the valves from floating (anything over 8K rpm on a stock VTEC head with stock cams you'll want to upgrade the valvetrain, even more true lower if you run bigger cams)

2. How much reliability and how long do you want the motor to last (the higher the redline the more likely it will be you'll spin a rod bearing and there's additional wear the higher the RPM you go)

3. The engines ability to flow enough air to the support the amount of fuel needed to continue to make power

4. Probably a couple other minor things I'm forgetting at the moment.

If you want a really high redline where the engine is still making power you're going to need big cams. Big cams typically need lots of compression to work their best, hence the reason you see big compression and high redlines going hand in hand.

And just to state the obvious, cause it may not be obvious to some people, if you're goingto rev real high on a motor, or even if not, purely on a reliability stand point, I would HIGHLY recommend having the entire rotating assy balanced, as well as blueprinting the whole motor. We had a motor (again, American big block) that started getting real noisy on the bottom, so we tore it down and found that it had wiped the two center mains REAL bad and had scored the cranks main journals on those smae ones because the machine shop that assembled the motor had .001" tighter clearance on those journals than the rest. Blueprinting is to catch these errors BEFORE final assembly of the motor. Just a thought...

[Tage]

/\ Good point! I consider balancing and blueprinting "standard" practice when assemblying a motor which is the reason I will NEVER use aftermarket bearings like ACL, etc. OEM Honda is the only way to go because Honda's are not like old school V8 builds where you can shim the bearings to get the clearances you need. For example with ACL bearings you can either get "standard" or ".25mm oversized" (i.e. regrinded crank). Aftermarket goes with the "one size fits all" approach. They're about half the cost which might be the way to go if you're doing frequent tear down/rebuilds. But for me $200 vs $100 is nothing when you consider how much you have invested in the entire engine or even just the rods/crank. Honda actually makes 7 different sizes that all technically fall within the "standard" size. The differences between each size is about .0002" (<-- yes that's THREE zeros before the "2", not just two zeros)! You can actually use two different size bearing halfs for one main or one rod bearing as well in the event you want to have .0001" accuracy. Honda calls for about .0013" - .0020 clearances on their VTEC engines and even tighter for the non-VTEC engines. I set my builds on the tight end (.0015") of the scale since the engine is consistent sees 6-9K rpm for 10-20 minutes at a time.

EDIT:very well put exactly how i would have put it, im just to lazy to type that much, I can type about 100 words per minute (slower obviously when I start getting detailed), so it doesn't take very long for me to write a book... :)

[Mike Honcho]

well said. I would even go as far as saying 11:1-11.5:1 just because I'm ASSUMING This car is going to spend most of it's life in az, and have you noticed how hot it is here at times? I'd imagine you could get into some problems with detonation with that much compression. Maybe with aluminum motors you can get away with that, I don't know. I know on our iron big blocks that we run on the street, if we work over about 11.5:1 (That's only with aluminum heads) we start running into serious problems in the AZ heat. Just a thought, since you're talking about a "daily driver" status car here.

I daily drive 12:1 every day all day. On 91 pump

[J2daM]

I daily drive 12:1 every day all day. On 91 pump

what kinda car? MOTOR? mods?

[Mike Honcho]

what kinda car? MOTOR? mods?

b20 vtec, pretty much everything cept for headwork. crower stage 3 cams

[allmotorgsr]

i see, but i d k... down here i guess where i live, its a whole lot cheaper to build a compression beast... for instance, b20 block (200 bucks) b16 head, maybe 500, getting the head shaved, 40-80 bucks... and drop a ctr tranny for another 400 bucks, and ur at about 12:1 compression with good rings... and boost is a little more expensive, and i dont like the idea of peicing together a turbo kit... i love boost, dont get me wrong... but can a high compression car, stay up there with a boosted car at descent psi?? ive seen it happen at half the price...

dude if ur pickin up CTR trannies for 400 bux.... HOOK ME UP! lol
and as far as money goes, u can go farther with less money by goin turbo.
as was already mentioned, building NA power aint easy... or cheap.
stock b16s have been takin to 600+whp turboed (lol for a a couple runs at least).... think about that:blunt:

[J2daM]

dude if ur pickin up CTR trannies for 400 bux.... HOOK ME UP! lol
and as far as money goes, u can go farther with less money by goin turbo.
as was already mentioned, building NA power aint easy... or cheap.
stock b16s have been takin to 600+whp turboed (lol for a a couple runs at least).... think about that:blunt:

lol, yea dude, usdm trannys go for about 300 bucks, ctr: usually with hella miles on them, go for 400-450 bucks... but one with low miles will cost u a little more.. no more than 850 tho... 600whp??? i dont know about that... to get 600 wheel hp its gunna cost u a pretty ass penny... i dont think itll be cheap at all... maybe cheaper than an all motor 600 whp... but thats only prolly cuz u gonna up the boost on a turboed car to get that hp.. . it aint gunna last u tho! lol...

[J2daM]

b20 vtec, pretty much everything cept for headwork. crower stage 3 cams

sick bro.. i have a friend with a cr-vtec... but axel snap all day... what kinda axels are u using?? hes got a b20 block usdm b16a2 head... with an itr cam, and a ctr cam... its pretty crazy... but yea, what kinda axel u use? oh and what hubs too?

[Shiznit]

less painful, that can be debated :)
im talking about the install :blunt:

[Mike Honcho]

sick bro.. i have a friend with a cr-vtec... but axel snap all day... what kinda axels are u using?? hes got a b20 block usdm b16a2 head... with an itr cam, and a ctr cam... its pretty crazy... but yea, what kinda axel u use? oh and what hubs too?

stock, everything stock, launch @ the track on slicks @ 7800 rpm. 1.6 sixty foots, never had a problem... just all about preloading

[J2daM]

stock, everything stock, launch @ the track on slicks @ 7800 rpm. 1.6 sixty foots, never had a problem... just all about preloading

HOT damn!! launching at 7800... over time somethings gotta go if its all stock... tie rods or sumthing right? so u used b20 axels?

[Tage]

lol, yea dude, usdm trannys go for about 300 bucks, ctr: usually with hella miles on them, go for 400-450 bucks... but one with low miles will cost u a little more.. no more than 850 tho... 600whp??? i dont know about that... to get 600 wheel hp its gunna cost u a pretty ass penny... i dont think itll be cheap at all... maybe cheaper than an all motor 600 whp... but thats only prolly cuz u gonna up the boost on a turboed car to get that hp.. . it aint gunna last u tho! lol...

I don't see how CTR transmissions are cheaper where you live vs every other town in America but I'll take your word for it and I'll give you $600 for one with hella miles if you can find me one!

FYI - 600whp is very "possible" with a turbo even on a 1.6L. I think it's safe to say with today's technology even if you have an unlimited budget it's not possible to make 600HP all motor with a B or K series. I'd even venture to say 300WHP is probably the limit with a B-series and maybe 400'ish with a K24. Again, those figures are about the limit with what's available today.

[J2daM]

I don't see how CTR transmissions are cheaper where you live vs every other town in America but I'll take your word for it and I'll give you $600 for one with hella miles if you can find me one!

FYI - 600whp is very "possible" with a turbo even on a 1.6L. I think it's safe to say with today's technology even if you have an unlimited budget it's not possible to make 600HP all motor with a B or K series. I'd even venture to say 300WHP is probably the limit with a B-series and maybe 400'ish with a K24. Again, those figures are about the limit with what's available today.


If ur really serious, ill put the word out that i need one... but thats only if ur serious, otherwise i dont wanna bug people for it and then have them find one for cheap and me be like o nevermind... ya dig?

yea i know, 600whp is very possible... but is 600 whp possible one a stock motor with just the turbo kit added... which is what he said...

[allmotorgsr]

lol, yea dude, usdm trannys go for about 300 bucks, ctr: usually with hella miles on them, go for 400-450 bucks... but one with low miles will cost u a little more.. no more than 850 tho... 600whp??? i dont know about that... to get 600 wheel hp its gunna cost u a pretty ass penny... i dont think itll be cheap at all... maybe cheaper than an all motor 600 whp... but thats only prolly cuz u gonna up the boost on a turboed car to get that hp.. . it aint gunna last u tho! lol...

ahaha yes 600+whp!

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2036623

Read! ahaha and theres no such thing as a 600 hp n/a honda.
but i wish u luck anyways my friend.

and if u find another ctr tranny fer 400... HIT ME UP ahahaha:blunt:

[allmotorgsr]

yea i know, 600whp is very possible... but is 600 whp possible one a stock motor with just the turbo kit added... which is what he said...

and yes 600 is acheivable stock block.!!! the link i sent u above is Honda Techs STOCK BLOCK THREAD.

enjoy:blunt:

[Mike Honcho]

HOT damn!! launching at 7800... over time somethings gotta go if its all stock... tie rods or sumthing right? so u used b20 axels?

stock gsr axles, over 20 passes on them

[Tage]

If ur really serious, ill put the word out that i need one... but thats only if ur serious, otherwise i dont wanna bug people for it and then have them find one for cheap and me be like o nevermind... ya dig?

PM'ing

[J2daM]

stock gsr axles, over 20 passes on them

gotcha!

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Read! ahaha and theres no such thing as a 600 hp n/a honda.

http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/formula1/cars/bar-honda-f1-05.jpg

[allmotorgsr]

http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/formula1/cars/bar-honda-f1-05.jpg

ahaha ok you got me... good call
but you know what i meant... no motor that ever came in a Honda production vehicle has ever made 600 hp n/a. those v8's honda made for the indy cars are sooo dope. upwards of like 18,000 rpm redline i beleive. dope shit :blunt:

[ILIKETODRIVE]

no motor that ever came in a Honda production vehicle has ever made 600 hp n/a.

I bet if someone really tried hard and spent ungodly amounts of money, they could get 500 naturally aspirated horses from an NSX engine.

[allmotorgsr]

lol MAD amounts of money
that would be quite the machine though

[J2daM]

Well if u go with the nsx motor... the market aint very high on them... so everything is gonna be custom... and to build it cmopression wise, what kinda head? i jus dont see an na v6 dishing out 500 hp... possible i guess, but then again anythings possible... one of those id have to see it first to be optimistic about it... jus my 2 cents..

[Tage]

Yeah I believe my original comment stated there's no way a B series will make 600HP na with today's technology (custom or not). With unlimited funds an NSX motor could make 500HP na. High compression pistons wouldn't be hard to find for the NSX. The only thing I'm sure of is if there's a high lift/duration cam but again with unlimited funds, assume a bad ass cam. ITB's, head work and tuned headers is a given. Don't forget that Pro Dragsters are NA V8's and they make around 1500 HP (i.e. far more HP per liter than any of our Honda's).

[HEADSHOT]

i see, but i d k... down here i guess where i live, its a whole lot cheaper to build a compression beast... for instance, b20 block (200 bucks) b16 head, maybe 500, getting the head shaved, 40-80 bucks... and drop a ctr tranny for another 400 bucks, and ur at about 12:1 compression with good rings... and boost is a little more expensive, and i dont like the idea of peicing together a turbo kit... i love boost, dont get me wrong... but can a high compression car, stay up there with a boosted car at descent psi?? ive seen it happen at half the price...

for the amount of money u are talking about putting into a high compression platform, you wont eve come close to a boosted setup up at 8-10 psi. let alone you wont be reliable. not to mention u missed a few parts u will need. ls vtec kit 200 bucks custom head gasket 100 arp head studs 100.. how do you plan to get 12 to 1 compression with stock b20 pistons? i think endtne makes ctr replica b20 pistons 4 400. then you need to think about all the machining work u will need to do to get the pistons on, re machine the rods, get machine rod bearings possibly micro polish the crank. and the rs ration of the b20 block isnt that great so u r only looking at about 7500 rpm redline. then you still have to get it tuned and thats 4-800 dollars


take what ever you got and get it boosted and tuned. if you dont have money for either one you better think about doing something else

cheapest and reliable. other then that and what i said above

[J2daM]

for the amount of money u are talking about putting into a high compression platform, you wont eve come close to a boosted setup up at 8-10 psi. let alone you wont be reliable. not to mention u missed a few parts u will need. ls vtec kit 200 bucks custom head gasket 100 arp head studs 100.. how do you plan to get 12 to 1 compression with stock b20 pistons? i think endtne makes ctr replica b20 pistons 4 400. then you need to think about all the machining work u will need to do to get the pistons on, re machine the rods, get machine rod bearings possibly micro polish the crank. and the rs ration of the b20 block isnt that great so u r only looking at about 7500 rpm redline. then you still have to get it tuned and thats 4-800 dollars


take what ever you got and get it boosted and tuned. if you dont have money for either one you better think about doing something else

cheapest and reliable. other then that and what i said above
point taken... i take it ur all about boost?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

point taken... i take it ur all about boost?

No, he's all about cheap. :crazy:

[HEADSHOT]

point taken... i take it ur all about boost?

hell no.. i like either. theres a lot more to properly bulding an engine then people think. i did a lot of research on engine building before even attempting one

[HEADSHOT]

No, he's all about cheap. :crazy:

hell yeah sucka... especially cause i got no job!!!

[fc3s4life]

hell yeah sucka... especially cause i got no job!!!

LMAO!! u gotta love it!!

[fc3s4life]

No, he's all about cheap. :crazy:

can u really blame the man?? i mean honestly...

[J2daM]

hey, another quik question... when u guys buy parts for ur car, do u buy the brand??? or do u say screw it... and intake is an intake and a header is a header... jus curious?

[tegmister]

the old saying ''you get what you pay for'' plays a big role in car parts

[J2daM]

the old saying ''you get what you pay for'' plays a big role in car parts

ok, but how much of a difference does it really make? again, jus curious on ur guy's opinions..

[*inFamous*]

Just to answer that motor issue regarding HP

Honda has a V10 that will be doing 500hp N/A and it will be in a production vehicle :)

[J2daM]

Just to answer that motor issue regarding HP

Honda has a V10 that will be doing 500hp N/A and it will be in a production vehicle :)

damn!! what vehicle?