Honing without going oversized?

[Joe118969]

Well this dohc zc I picked up is down on the cylinder closest to the cams, where water is leaking in. I pulled the head and see that the bores don't look great in fact there were some surface rust on the the cylinder gushing coolant. I picked up this engine thinking it was good, because it had a new reman head on it. On top of that the water jacket has build up of crap, was scraping out some grease/deposit build up around the water jacket.

My question is can I do a light hone without going oversize, my plan is just replace the rod bearings and piston rings if I can...

[Joe118969]

...

[I Hate Import Cars]

First of all, all of the cylinders are equally distanced from the cam, so I'm not sure what that means. As for the honing, you need to understand what that means. You don't hone a cylinder to size it. You bore it to size it. A hone is just to put a finish on the cylinder walls. That's it. I mean, don't get me wrong, you CAN hone it to a bigger size, but you're going to be there all day doing it. Without seeing it myself, I can't really give you a suggestion as to what to do, but I can tell you this; if there is no serious damage to the cylinders (aka gouging or galling) and they are still straight, there's a good chance that you can just hone it to put a new finish in the bore and slap a set of rings in it and go. But before you do anything, you need to mic the bores and see if they're worn oversized. If they are, you have to get pistons or else your cylinder wall-to-piston clearance is going to be wrong and you're going to burn oil like mad, foul plugs, not make power, detonate, and end up hating your car. TRUST ME ON THIS ONE. I'VE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT. Just ask Ravi, Joe, Tage, or any of the other 800 people that dealt with it WITH me!

Another thought is this; honing is kind of an art, and the angle of the pattern that is cut into the cylinder is important. That angle is determined by 2 things; the speed the hone is rotating at and the speed the hone is moving up and down in the cylinder at. A good machine shop will be able to do this accurately for you, as well as tell you if honing is even a possibility, or if you need to bore it. If it's not in the car, I would suggest you take it to a machine shop to have it done, but that's just me.

If you do, I would recommend going to Todd at S&S Machining in Mesa. They do flawless work, are very honest, and are priced as good as you'll find anywhere in town. There are numerous people on this site that can vouch for their work, myself included. Their phone number is 480-464-9385. Hope that helps.

[kawgomoo]

be aware of the misinformation.

first off you do in fact hone a cylinder to size. you bore it to about .005-.010 under final bore size then hone it the rest of the way.

your motor probably has a warped deck. this is why they replaced the head, due to overheating from bad head gaskets whatever.

why on earth would you replace the rod bearings? if the rod bearings are down to copper there is much more wrong. just because you remove the rod doesnt mean you need new bearings. they can be reused as long as nothing is wrong with them.

if you just want surface rust gone use a dingle ball hone. ie flex hone. a parrallel or 3 stone hone will take too much too fast and will leave you with an oversize cylinder that more than likely has taper in it.

the block deck surface needs to be checked. mechanics are notorious for using an air grinder with a scotch brite pad to clean teh gasket material off the head and deck of the block. this leads to a surface that is much like a golf ball. the new head gasket will only seal temporarily. the uneven texture will cause it to start to leak again shortly.

granted all this is dependant on no cracks in the head or sleaves. if its a reman head look for the button on it. if the center is melted out the head has been severely overheated and probably twisted. so it till will have to be decked flat. good news is decking is cheap.

check it all. if you need to deck it pull it apart. clean everything as it is removed and label it with a sharpy. if you put all the bearings back exactly where the came from you will be alright. of course no bearing can be scratched, nicked or showing copper. if you need new bearings the best inexpensive ones are clevite 77's. nothing beats honda factory bearing. actually nascar motors use cranks turned down to honda journal size and run OEM honda bearings. that should tell you something.

[I Hate Import Cars]

be aware of the misinformation.

first off you do in fact hone a cylinder to size. you bore it to about .005-.010 under final bore size then hone it the rest of the way.


Okay, EXCUSE the shit out of me. Yes, TECHNICALLY you hone to size. Think of it like this; if you want to dig a hole that has to be EXACTLY 10ft deep and have a perfectly smooth bottom, and you already have a hole that's 6 feet deep and a backhoe, are you going to use the backhoe and try to nail that 10 ft mark right on the head with out going over? (remember you can't add back material in a motor) Or are you going to use the backhoe to dig to 9 ft, 10 inches, then do the final 2 inches with a shovel to make sure that it's EXACTLY 10 ft without going over? Or are you going to grab a shovel and try to dig a 10 ft deep hole?
No, because you'd be there all day! This is the point I'm making.


actually nascar motors use cranks turned down to honda journal size and run OEM honda bearings. that should tell you something.

"Be aware of the misinformation." This is not nessecerily true.

[kawgomoo]

i dont know what point you are trying to make.

he said hone WITHOUT going oversize. you would not bore a motor that is already on size if all you wanted to do was clean up the cross hatch so your rings would bed on standard bore pistons.

im not trying to pee on anyones cornflakes. just making it known that if he wanted to clean up the bore to just use a dingle ball hone. on many motors when i was feeling super lazy i would just hone the crap out of them with a course stone then switch out to a fine hone for the last few strokes.

if you want to see how jacked the deck surface is spray paint it, then take a long board used in body work and make a few light passes across the deck. this will reveal any high or low spots.

as far as quoting me its true not every roundy round uses honda journals. but lots to most pro level engines do.. many circle trackers run small block both ford and chevy with honda journal rods/cranks. it is actually due the the smaller size journal requiring less "bearing speed" which reduces friction thusly freeing up hp. just proving my point honda knew what they were doing when they designed there engines, and didnt just randomly pick a journal size and run with it. im a firm believer in honda bearings... but its really honda close tolerances that make the motors live. this is why the oem color coded bearing are usually better to use than a set of one size fits all clevites.


if you want to clean the deck surface use a regular razor blade and hold it straight up and down scraping across the deck surface. if you hold it an angle it will dig into the deck surface.

[I Hate Import Cars]

as far as quoting me its true not every roundy round uses honda journals. but lots to most pro level engines do.. many circle trackers run small block both ford and chevy with honda journal rods/cranks. it is actually due the the smaller size journal requiring less "bearing speed" which reduces friction thusly freeing up hp. just proving my point honda knew what they were doing when they designed there engines, and didnt just randomly pick a journal size and run with it. im a firm believer in honda bearings... but its really honda close tolerances that make the motors live. this is why the oem color coded bearing are usually better to use than a set of one size fits all clevites.


Thank you. ;) And yes, I'll vouch that THAT is right. And that those are the reasons that they do it. MY cousin worked for Bill Davis Racing doing machine work and I remember when he told me that, (before I got into Hondas) and I was like "WHAT THE FUCK?! You're lying." He then went on to tell me about 5 or 6 other great "innovations" in NASCAR that stemmed from ideas that Honda and Toyota had been doing for years! I thought that was pretty funny. He was like all ashamed to say it out loud. SO funny to see!

[kawgomoo]

i tell no lies :) lol been doin this crap way too long. now if only i could find a way to get rich at it.

everyone knows the japs build better engines... especially honda. i got a job offer right before i moved out here to build irl honda motors in santa clarita. i should have gone with that but nooooo i wanted to be a freakin fabricator.

proof that you can be smart, and still be a complete idiot.

you ever look at my "picture resume" thread?

[I Hate Import Cars]

proof that you can be smart, and still be a complete idiot.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

you ever look at my "picture resume" thread?

NNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Point me to it!

[kawgomoo]

http://www.azht.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50815