Need Advice...Brake Pads...

[SlowCivicHmm]

I got a few extra bucks for upgrades....

Getting Azenis's this weeek!! yay!! which doesn't leave me much for pads/brakes....

My Current Set Up:
GSR hubs/kunckles/brakes F/R...
Duralast Gold Front (Life Time Warranty lol)
Duralast "Reds" Rear (Life Time Warranty aswell...hehe)
Valvoline Syntec DOT4 Synthetic Fluid
No Heatshileds
Front Brake Ducts
SS Lines
VX Prop Valve
VX Master Cylinder/Booster


I want to change Fluids and Brake Pads....My brakes are actually perfect right now...ask Josh, he moved my car @ PIR (very few drive my car ever...lol) brakes are touchy as hell and stop quick....

I was thinking:
Hawk Blues Front?
But what for rear?? Keep the Duralast??
ATE Super Blue Fluid
Fresh Bleed
New duct tubing w/more direct air to piston/rotor....

I have bout 100 to play with maybe less....yeah I'm a budget Racer....and just to tell ya guys my rear pads actually do wear unlike more honduhs don't know why...lol....maybe prop valve for drum set up??

Help me out....I have ProAuto This week....if my progress looks good by wednesday i'll schedule an alignment Friday morning before work..

Alignment Set up....
-2.5 Front Camber (Currently -1.5)
-2 Rear Camber (Currently -2.5)
+5 Caster (Flipping Arms for +3, traction bars for +2) I"m currently @ +3
1/16th Toe Out Front (Currently 1/32th)
0 Toe Rear

If Not I have NASA the next weekend..but I don't want to miss FIR West....



So help me out....What should I get??

[PhoenixB16]

I've used Axxis ultimates on the tank,and they were great. As light as your car is,you will NOT need anyhting to aggressive.personally,id do the hawks up front and keep the duralasts in the rear.if its working well now,i wouldnt fuck with it to much.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

R-comps > amazing brakes. Since I know you're a budget whore, OEM rotors and Ultimates would suffice.

What I have; OEM pads, BAP rotors, RA-1's. I was braking later than almost everyone that was on street tires.

[PhoenixB16]

Yea now that I think about it Joser you do NOT need the hawk blues,the HPS would be more that enough pad for you.Your brakes work well according to you,so like I said I wouldnt dick with it to much at all.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Your brakes work well according to you,so like I said I wouldnt dick with it to much at all.

x2

That's why I'm just going to turn my sweet BAP rotors and get Ultimates when I need brakes again.

[PhoenixB16]

I love Ultimates!

[SlowCivicHmm]

R-comps > amazing brakes. Since I know you're a budget whore, OEM rotors and Ultimates would suffice.

What I have; OEM pads, BAP rotors, RA-1's. I was braking later than almost everyone that was on street tires.

yeah I can't afford R comp's just yet........

Plus I'd rather keep street tire status for a while longer...learn a lil bit more...plus OPEN diff...hehe....

I've killed a set of Falken 912's....murder'd a set of Kumho Esctas....

Figured I'd kill a set of Azenis, then R Comp's........Azenis's should last me till next May......Fall 09 R Comp's and FULL track only car by then.....or even sooner..

I currently run Autozone $20 Buck Rotors as recommnended by HT RR Forum a while back.....I guess lots of HC guys do the same thing..

rotors = wear item...

[SlowCivicHmm]

Yea now that I think about it Joser you do NOT need the hawk blues,the HPS would be more that enough pad for you.Your brakes work well according to you,so like I said I wouldnt dick with it to much at all.

No blues?? hmmm

Well I should of mention'd......my pads only really last me the event..if the pads don't "die" then the fluid is TOAST and need a re-bleed to be able to daily drive it...reason for the better fluid....

Keep in mind this car will only be driven once in a while and to and from track......so looking for TRACK ONLY SET UP...reason I was thinking Blues as ROBLES recommended...

1. Ultimates
2. HPS
3. Hawk Blues

I am looking for a set up that I don't have to touch for a while....i'm tired of weekend maintance to track...then re maintance to daily...lol

<---Joser who wants to DRIVE ONLY!!

[SlowCivicHmm]

PS thanks for the info/help guys........TRACK WHORES ROCK!!

Brett come out to ProAuto this weekend if you have time....not sure If I'll run though...

[PhoenixB16]

I can drag the wife with I am sure. time/place?And who is Robles? Think though,if you go TO agressive on the pads you are just going to chew through pads/rotors,and end up doing what you do NOT want to do....constant maintenence

[SlowCivicHmm]

Robles is Phil.....old man Phil in the Phantom Grey EG.....


I think a few honda guys are rolling out to FIR West Sat/Sun....track goes live @ 8am sharpe....


Yeah I know on the too aggressive part, but go too cheap and you'll do the same.....glazzin rotors!! HEAT sucks.....better bads/fluids etc etc that can desipate heat better is what i'm looking for...

HPS might do the trick...FAST BRAKES?? UMS? any connections locally where I don't have to wait for shipping??

[PhoenixB16]

Id talk to J if I were you. Your car is light and has brakes bigger than mine,so you will not need anyhting TOO wild.

[Kinetic]

R-comps > amazing brakes. Since I know you're a budget whore, OEM rotors and Ultimates would suffice.

What I have; OEM pads, BAP rotors, RA-1's. I was braking later than almost everyone that was on street tires.


except for me...I late brake on everbody:tongue:


Yea now that I think about it Joser you do NOT need the hawk blues,the HPS would be more that enough pad for you.Your brakes work well according to you,so like I said I wouldnt dick with it to much at all.


Hoser-


better tires= better braking......tires are a huge factor in braking. I say HP Plus pads and ATE super blue fluid


THis will hold you over until you are ready to go R comps and Race pads

[PhoenixB16]

You late break on everyone since your rotor is damn near the size of my RIM fool ;)

[Tage]

better tires= better braking......tires are a huge factor in braking. I say HP Plus pads and ATE super blue fluid


+1

Also remember to compare apples to apples.

The Hawk and Carbotech line up goes as follows:

HPS / XP6 = semi aggressive street and autox
HP+ / XP8 = aggressive street and autox & light track duty
Black / XP10 = light track duty
Blue / XP12 = Track only recommended
HT-10 / XP14 = oh snap!
DTC60 / XP16 = fook me!
DTC70

Your Durlast pads I doubt would even show up on the scale above. The Axxis Ultimates *might* be comparable to an HPS or XP6. My Hawk Blacks work pretty damn good even when cold so they could be used a a DD pad if you really had to. I'm looking for even more bite though in the front as I still have too much rear brake bias so I'll be going to Hawk Blues next.

[SlowCivicHmm]

except for me...I late brake on everbody:tongue:





Hoser-


better tires= better braking......tires are a huge factor in braking. I say HP Plus pads and ATE super blue fluid


THis will hold you over until you are ready to go R comps and Race pads


Ward, can you get me prces on the HP plus and ATE fluid?? thx.....

azeniz = way more grip than my full street 912's...fo sho!

I want a pad that I dont have to swap till summer 09 basically.....track duty only..


Thx again fellas...

[PhoenixB16]

Dude ant has the HP+ and I LOVE those damn things.Highly reccomended.

[BlueTeg]

I ran the blues for awhile. Great track pad (if you have R-comps) but they would scare me if I had make an emergency stop on the street with them when they are cold.

I really like the Cobalt XR-3's. They replaced the Spec B.
Better bite when they're cold than the Hawk Blues. More linear feel. The Blues felt very "on or off" to me. <---personal experience.

I think that Hawk blues are going to lock your street tires up. Alot.
If you have already bought the Azenis, just go with a mild track pad (Cobalt GTS or Hawk HPS/HP+) so you're not locking the tires up all the time and so you don't have change the pads out twice a month.

[PhoenixB16]

Word. Joser like 5 of us have told you the same damn thing. now DO IT!

[SlowCivicHmm]

already did sir.........ward got the PM....cash in hand!! azenis too!!

[Kinetic]

already did sir.........ward got the PM....cash in hand!! azenis too!!



replied

[PhoenixB16]

I need a suspension BADLY but the cars budget for the year is S H O T. Anyone need any lawn work done? pools cleaned/ lol.

[SlowCivicHmm]

I need a suspension BADLY but the cars budget for the year is S H O T. Anyone need any lawn work done? pools cleaned/ lol.

aignt niggguh you jumping in on my territory....

got back to t he lake fish boy!! lol

[JoshDC2]

I need a suspension BADLY but the cars budget for the year is S H O T. Anyone need any lawn work done? pools cleaned/ lol.

you better watch out. joser is very territorial. nasa is his market

[Tage]

I need a suspension BADLY but the cars budget for the year is S H O T. Anyone need any lawn work done? pools cleaned/ lol.

PM me if you're being serious.

[PhoenixB16]

you better watch out. joser is very territorial. nasa is his market
I'm legal. is Joser? j/k love you Joser!

[SlowCivicHmm]

love you too nigg, just don't deport me.......tech won't be the same without me.....

Azeniz might come from Eric now.....sorry ward....I'll leave ya on stand by..

Pads and Fluids will be order manana....waiting on a homie that might have a set at home for me...hehe

<---budget to the MAX!!

[RobHimself]

Need a steering wheel josebeeee? My old Mugen has been found and you got dibs! Oh yeah, my i/o port cam mount too!

[PhoenixB16]

where the fuck have YOU been?

[RobHimself]

Job went to shit so I moved back up to northern ca, being a drunk on the beach. Something i kick ass at actually

[PhoenixB16]

as long as you are good at it.

[SlowCivicHmm]

ROB!!!

I got your V/M this morning.....we do need to catch up...shit imma fly down there as soon as I get a chance bro.....party it up like old times....

wheel and cam mount are mine! how much though??

[UMS Tuning Sales]

Job went to shit so I moved back up to northern ca, being a drunk on the beach. Something i kick ass at actually


who is this guy?????????

is he a track whore?

Brett, Joser speak up!

[PhoenixB16]

Yea,Rob from back in the day. He bought Dan Sturlas old EK and K swapped it.Was a regular back in the AMP days.

[UMS Tuning Sales]

hmmmmm

ok thanks

[SlowCivicHmm]

hmmmmm

ok thanks

DOWN WARD DOWN!!!

<<<SMACK>>>


He's good, he's with me....my old track whore partner in crime!! muahahahaha


Patrick bought the 7 from him...... ;-)

s2k out at the AMP test day....i'm sure you were there....but I think they hosed him on running that day....I forget...


Get to work jeremy! jeez...lol

[PhoenixB16]

he ran. I had ants car that day and Rob was behind me a couple sessions

[Kinetic]

its cool.... I asked because he needed some help with posting some things....

[SlowCivicHmm]

rob = nooob!! lol

<---bored @ work....sick as shit...weak, runny red nose, yet dry and bloody...EEK!....gawd....brb bathroom!! lol

[RobHimself]

I wanted to put some stuff up forsale but cant because of post count,im so noob!

[RobHimself]

he ran. I had ants car that day and Rob was behind me a couple sessions

That is correct! And I made it out of the day scratch free! As compared to the pylon marks I got all over the white gsr last time I drove there years back.

[Kinetic]

you must return to the dark side of the track....................

[SlowCivicHmm]

That is correct! And I made it out of the day scratch free! As compared to the pylon marks I got all over the white gsr last time I drove there years back.

muahahhaa i remember that day...I was @ turn 12 I think workin it!!


Dude I want that wheel and mount....I don't have cash just now...but lets talk..


PM me anything you want posted, I can post/vouch for you till you whore around a bit....shit just read my threads, you'll be up there in no time..haha

[SlowCivicHmm]

you must return to the dark side of the track....................

oh i've told him he has toooooo!!

What happened you your DA idea robbzilla?? huh huh.....drink one for me on the beach...hows the lady? pup?

[RobHimself]

I wish I would have done the da, but after my job cut pay in half it pretty moved brought all my plans to a dead stop. Ash and Madi are both doing good, maybe i'll go have that one for you at the beach tonight!

[SlowCivicHmm]

Big up for Simon for helping and CJ for lending his garage for the pads swap!!

Hawk HP+ and ATE Supa BLU FTW!!! car feels great!! Azenis get mounted thursday..alignment friday and everything else on wednesday!!! grrrr I shall be ready!!

[Kinetic]

Big up for Simon for helping and CJ for lending his garage for the pads swap!!

Hawk HP+ and ATE Supa BLU FTW!!! car feels great!! Azenis get mounted thursday..alignment friday and everything else on wednesday!!! grrrr I shall be ready!!

we shall see grasshopper....we.... shall..... see

[SlowCivicHmm]

you don't know the half of it..

top hat swap in the rear, and raise a lil......new axles up front, plus going to EX tranny, new clutch, rear main, oil and tranny fluid change.....if time new clutch master cylinder, SS line, and full bleed....oh and plugs need to get done/timing check @ 18 degrees, swap pass seat to driver since mine is broken....


SHIT ALSO BIG UPS TO UMS FOR PARTS!!!

[Kinetic]

you don't know the half of it..

top hat swap in the rear, and raise a lil......new axles up front, plus going to EX tranny, new clutch, rear main, oil and tranny fluid change.....if time new clutch master cylinder, SS line, and full bleed....oh and plugs need to get done/timing check @ 18 degrees, swap pass seat to driver since mine is broken....


SHIT ALSO BIG UPS TO UMS FOR PARTS!!!


Kitchen sink maybe?

[SlowCivicHmm]

that too!!!

[JoshDC2]

Kitchen sink maybe?

que?

[Vtecracer]

hint, hint.... all that AND the kitchen sink (while your at it)

UMMMMM my brakes need to be broken in ....will have to wait for sunday morning....

[fmx_dbc]

Big up for Simon for helping and CJ for lending his garage for the pads swap!!

Hawk HP+ and ATE Supa BLU FTW!!! car feels great!! Azenis get mounted thursday..alignment friday and everything else on wednesday!!! grrrr I shall be ready!!

Good choce on the Hawk HP+ Joser! And the super blue! Same exact setup I'm running in the Rex...but rear drums. I had a big brake kit on the front last year and I like this setup SOOOO much better!
See you in DE2! Want to leap frog it like you mentioned in past threads? I want to see some other peoples lines.

[fmx_dbc]

Hawk HP+ and ATE Supa BLU FTW!!! car feels great!! Azenis get mounted thursday..alignment friday and everything else on wednesday!!! grrrr I shall be ready!!

Sounds like you really got motivated to get your car running well!

[cjb]

Big up for Simon for helping and CJ for lending his garage for the pads swap!!

Hawk HP+ and ATE Supa BLU FTW!!! car feels great!! Azenis get mounted thursday..alignment friday and everything else on wednesday!!! grrrr I shall be ready!!


anytime bro, sorry i had to bail. Some personal things came up in a phone call and I needed to go drink...

[berny2435]

hey guys! Seems like yall are a pretty cool group. i've been at the last couple NASA events spectating and pokin my nose around. Just moved about 5 months ago from Iowa.

I'm getting ready to get my 08 Civic Si up to HPDE par. I'm use to running track pads with 225 R comps in a 95 K20 swapped civic but am now goin back to street tires. Never ran out here in AZ but back in midwest where we have some long straights.

On 205/45/16 Hankook RS2s I've fadded XP8s on GSR fronts with that K20 car but then stepped up to ITR front brakes and Satisfied Gransport GS3 pads (about the equivelant to Xp10s or Hawk Blacks but with better pad life) these pads were streetable on 205 hankook street tires as well. $220 a set for ITR/NSX caliper fitment. Tracks I saw had about 3 straights on each where I could hit 115-130mph or so. 210whp and 146trq @ 2480 with driver and full tank.

But on with my major question.

It seems like you guys are reccomending pretty light pads for this guy thats runnin Azenis. I consider HP+ light, especially on heavier cars. Is PIR and FIR easy on brakes?

I'm looking into swapping TSX calipers and 28mm rotors to my Si to get 3 more mm of thickness and durability. Rims and tires are still to be decided but I'm going to get at least 235 dunlop star specs or their 245/40/17 size. Thinkin I might be able to get away with Cobalt GTS pads for DD and HPDE.. .?. . . I think the Cobalt GTS pad is prob gonna be better than a Hawk HP+

[SlowCivicHmm]

Also consider I'm about 2200 w/driver and 1/2 tank...looking to drop more weight very soon too.....and I have a SOHC d15b7 lil tricked out by nothing more than 120whp IF THAT!!

I love my HP+ so for, can't wait to test them out on track...i haven't rolled on azenis YET, but these are tearing up my 912's...haha gotta be easy DD, but track I feel its going to be perfect...

Nice to meet ya bro....see you out at the track very soon I hope...

[berny2435]

IC IC. yeah, I guess you don't have the weight or power to need the crazy compounds You have the momentum setup! Shouldn't be using the brakes at all LOL! Just joking ;-)

I'll be at the next NASA event for sure (If I don't have to work overtime). I'll make sure I come out when group 3 is running. I came out last week when it was just group 2. The car prob wont be ready though as I need rims/tires/brakes/rear sway/camber kits before I get out there. I'm a bit obsessed about having adequet/good equipment. It's the damn Engineer in me!

[SlowCivicHmm]

Hey you got the idea...I don't brake unless I have too.....lol

[Kinetic]

hey guys! Seems like yall are a pretty cool group. i've been at the last couple NASA events spectating and pokin my nose around. Just moved about 5 months ago from Iowa.

I'm getting ready to get my 08 Civic Si up to HPDE par. I'm use to running track pads with 225 R comps in a 95 K20 swapped civic but am now goin back to street tires. Never ran out here in AZ but back in midwest where we have some long straights.

On 205/45/16 Hankook RS2s I've fadded XP8s on GSR fronts with that K20 car but then stepped up to ITR front brakes and Satisfied Gransport GS3 pads (about the equivelant to Xp10s or Hawk Blacks but with better pad life) these pads were streetable on 205 hankook street tires as well. $220 a set for ITR/NSX caliper fitment. Tracks I saw had about 3 straights on each where I could hit 115-130mph or so. 210whp and 146trq @ 2480 with driver and full tank.

But on with my major question.

It seems like you guys are reccomending pretty light pads for this guy thats runnin Azenis. I consider HP+ light, especially on heavier cars. Is PIR and FIR easy on brakes?

I'm looking into swapping TSX calipers and 28mm rotors to my Si to get 3 more mm of thickness and durability. Rims and tires are still to be decided but I'm going to get at least 235 dunlop star specs or their 245/40/17 size. Thinkin I might be able to get away with Cobalt GTS pads for DD and HPDE.. .?. . . I think the Cobalt GTS pad is prob gonna be better than a Hawk HP+

IC IC. yeah, I guess you don't have the weight or power to need the crazy compounds You have the momentum setup! Shouldn't be using the brakes at all LOL! Just joking ;-)

I'll be at the next NASA event for sure (If I don't have to work overtime). I'll make sure I come out when group 3 is running. I came out last week when it was just group 2. The car prob wont be ready though as I need rims/tires/brakes/rear sway/camber kits before I get out there. I'm a bit obsessed about having adequet/good equipment. It's the damn Engineer in me!


Undersatand that most of the people in this section of AZHT are track hounds and whores so most of us know what we are talking about...it sounds like you do to...


I look forward to meeting you thanksgiving weekend

[Vtecracer]

Yeah Ryan sounds like you are a track whore with the rest of us. Dude just come sign up for DE1 and a couple of our instructors are here in the mix so see about finding some paperwork that will enable you to talk to some or start a discussion in here about your experience to see if you have to go to de1 (bring your stock SI out) or de2 with a few mods. Placement in class will be up to those guys. As far as brakes go... in DE3 i am just running powerslot GSR all the way around with XP10's, 205 nt-01's, and ss lines and the car weighs 2600 with me in it and it stops NO PROBLEM. there is some heavy braking at PIR and FIR as you suggested earlier.

[berny2435]

Yeah Ryan sounds like you are a track whore with the rest of us. Dude just come sign up for DE1 and a couple of our instructors are here in the mix so see about finding some paperwork that will enable you to talk to some or start a discussion in here about your experience to see if you have to go to de1 (bring your stock SI out) or de2 with a few mods. Placement in class will be up to those guys. As far as brakes go... in DE3 i am just running powerslot GSR all the way around with XP10's, 205 nt-01's, and ss lines and the car weighs 2600 with me in it and it stops NO PROBLEM. there is some heavy braking at PIR and FIR as you suggested earlier.

yep, I'm a track whore:thumbsup: Not sure I can come out this thanksgiving now. To be decided b/c I might be going to Atlanta.. . Will know this week.

After Autocrossing my car today, the car feels like it needs less mods than I thought to be up to my par. Brakes are still a must though. Having ABS and power steering in a Civic was interesting to say the least. Felt good!

about placement in HPDE?? I'll C if I can find some registration stuff for the 6 events I've ran. 7 track days total. If they want me in HPDE1 to start, that's fine with me. New track, new lines, new drivers.. . Hopefully it will be a fast DE1 group ;-) I could have one of the people that ran "Find the line" tracking days email someone for proof or whatever.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I'm sure that if you talk to the right people that you'll be able to sign up for DE2 and just take an instructor like Gabe or Merv with you the whole day.

[dantana]

berny i think GTS or hawks arent enough for those big boy dunlops. im running race raybestos pads that are custom cut by porterfield. they are pricey pads but the bite and life outta them is unreal. they bite harder than specV cobalts and i have raced on them for over 2 years now, including 2 90min enduros. they lock up hoosiers no problem so you just need to be careful modulatly the clappers!
PM me for more info.
ps- pir and fir are both very easy on braking, nothing like larger tracks

[berny2435]

I'm kinda tryin to stay away from serious track pads on this car if I can. If I go with a hardcore compound it will most likely be too much for AutoX, even with ABS on street tires.. . Maybe if I do a 12.8" Willwood upgrade or something like that, Cobalt GTS or similar will be suffice with brake ducting. Not sure what I will run in the rear to even the car out. Maybe just some Hawk HPS or axis ultimates. Something inexpensive in stock size.

powerslot has a rear upgrade that increase diameter by ~ 2" with stock caliper which looks = :barf:. $430 upgrade through tirerack.com. sheesh, a 1" upgrade would prob be sufice

we'll C. I have a bit before I'm gonna get out there. I allways buy myself christmas presents ;-)

[SlowCivicHmm]

^^^^^ this guy is going to fit right in!! lol

[SlowCivicHmm]

Team SRD has a FG race car out at our last event....FYI!!

[riceboy88]

Team SRD has a FG race car out at our last event....FYI!!

it didnt run though had some issues

[SlowCivicHmm]

yeah brakes I think?? Renshaw was helping them...

Is TEAM SRD the same as SRD??? It don't look like it to be honest..

[riceboy88]

yeah brakes I think?? Renshaw was helping them...

Is TEAM SRD the same as SRD??? It don't look like it to be honest..

i dont think it was cuz there was a bunch of old guys with them

[berny2435]

hmm, I must have missed them unless they showed up on Sunday only (I missed) or are talking about the COG guys. Cog racing had a FG civic and their other car was a C6 vette. yellow, white and red were their colors I beleive.

I spoke with those COG guys.. . Not to bash them but I couldn't beleive that no one in their crew or driver knew what suspension or brakes they were running front or rear besides the brand name market on them.. . Size, model of caliper, spring rates.. . Willwood, ksport.. .

[riceboy88]

hmm, I must have missed them unless they showed up on Sunday only (I missed) or are talking about the COG guys. Cog racing had a FG civic and their other car was a C6 vette. yellow, white and red were their colors I beleive.

I spoke with those COG guys.. . Not to bash them but I couldn't beleive that no one in their crew or driver knew what suspension or brakes they were running front or rear besides the brand name market on them.. . Size, model of caliper, spring rates.. . Willwood, ksport.. .

yea the COG guys but they had SRD all over them too

[berny2435]

okay, yeah I talked with them for a while.

I think the brake issues were driver/team/maintenance related and not really component persay. Althought they had no brake ducting.

They were running a Willwood dynalite setup front and the powerslot 12.2 inch rear kit. Should have been enough brake with Hoosiers. I'm not sure what size the fronts were but I'm guessin it was 12.2" http://fastbrakes.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28_165&products_id=505

A big thing was that fter they pulled in after a failed track session, popped their hood, we noticed their brake fluid resevior had no lid on it. They probably sucked in air into the MC and overheated the brakes b/c of air in the system. Causing the lock up which put HUGE flatspots on his front tires.

Also what may have contributed to their failure was that the car seemed to have been prepped and never tracked before that race.. . Also the dude was a rookie driver and running on Hoosiers which may not have been the best way to go. But I don't know the dude or his skills so that one really doesn't count.

Well, learn from yours or others mistakes. Either way, I know who I'm benchmarking my setup against ;-)

[Vtecracer]

Ryan... just come and track it.... you will only run 70% in De1 and your stock brakes are fine. I kept telling myself i could not go to the track because i didn't have good brakes..or i didn't have good tires, or i didn't have a strong enough motor. i found my first time in de1 and de2 that the car had A LOT more than i could handle and then after several events (read like 3-4) then i started to upgrade parts as i was comfortable with the car and could actually feel the difference the parts made. You better sign up for the thanksgiving event.. trust me you will be glad that you did especially the first time you come in from being on track again.

E

[berny2435]

well.. . we will see for the Thanksgiving. I think I gotta go out to Atlanta though. The rents haven't seen me in a while and I might be spending christmas here in AZ where I have no fam. Gotta chill with the misses b/c she "might" have to work the Holliday. Wallgreens Pharmacists can have some terrible hours!

I'm use to drivin the piss out a car that was setup better and much faster so I'm sure I will probably be harder on the brakes than I should be. I was at the AutoX yesterday. It's all good, I'll get her sorted out soon enough.

Here's to thinkin I should have went Civic Si a 10 months ago instead of buying a 350Z.. .

[BlueTeg]

I'm kinda tryin to stay away from serious track pads on this car if I can. If I go with a hardcore compound it will most likely be too much for AutoX, even with ABS on street tires.. .

Maybe if I do a 12.8" Willwood upgrade or something like that, Cobalt GTS or similar will be suffice with brake ducting. Not sure what I will run in the rear to even the car out. Maybe just some Hawk HPS or axis ultimates. Something inexpensive in stock size.

powerslot has a rear upgrade that increase diameter by ~ 2" with stock caliper which looks = :barf:. $430 upgrade through tirerack.com. sheesh, a 1" upgrade would prob be sufice

You're getting waaaay ahead of yourself here.
You want to stay away from 'serious' pads cause it will be too much for AutoX. Then you're talking abot a 12.8" Wilwood setup (which is in the 'serious' category BTW) with autocross pads. (???) Why would you spend all that money for 4/6 piston brake calipers and put mild pads on them? Then you mention upgrading the rear rotors to larger diameter, when all FF Hondas use very little rear brake. Totally unnecessary.

1.) Have you tracked this car before? If yes, proceed to #2. If no, then forget all that BS and just get the car on track before you start pouring tons of money into components that don't need to be upgraded.

2.) Are you experiencing brake fade on track? If no, then proceed to #3. If yes, then start with a pad and fluid upgrade first and see if that solves the fade issue. This will be WAY cheaper than doing a Wilwood setup. Keep in mind that you can't have a brake setup that is optimized for street and track. There will be compromises, it just depends on your personal preferences. A great track setup will be annoying on a street car due to loud pad noise, excessive brake dust on your wheels, low rotor life, and potentially dangerous lead time to heat up the pads before they acheive enough heat to generate the friction necessary to stop the car. A great street setup will fade after just a few laps on track. Some guys run separate pads for street vs. track. Others just pick a pad compound in the middle of the scale and deal with the slight increase in brake dust on the wheels, slight noise when stopping at lights/signs, decent stopping capabilities on track and decent resistance to fade.


3.) Are you able to lock up your front tires? At the beginning and end of your session? If you are still able to lock up the brakes, or in your case engage the ABS, then you don't need to upgrade your brakes, you need to upgrade your tires to something stickier that can take advantage of the brake torque. If you are not, then you do need to look into a pad material with greater brake torque and/or higher operating temperature window.

[Kinetic]

You're getting waaaay ahead of yourself here.
You want to stay away from 'serious' pads cause it will be too much for AutoX. Then you're talking abot a 12.8" Wilwood setup (which is in the 'serious' category BTW) with autocross pads. (???) Why would you spend all that money for 4/6 piston brake calipers and put mild pads on them? Then you mention upgrading the rear rotors to larger diameter, when all FF Hondas use very little rear brake. Totally unnecessary.

1.) Have you tracked this car before? If yes, proceed to #2. If no, then forget all that BS and just get the car on track before you start pouring tons of money into components that don't need to be upgraded.

2.) Are you experiencing brake fade on track? If no, then proceed to #3. If yes, then start with a pad and fluid upgrade first and see if that solves the fade issue. This will be WAY cheaper than doing a Wilwood setup. Keep in mind that you can't have a brake setup that is optimized for street and track. There will be compromises, it just depends on your personal preferences. A great track setup will be annoying on a street car due to loud pad noise, excessive brake dust on your wheels, low rotor life, and potentially dangerous lead time to heat up the pads before they acheive enough heat to generate the friction necessary to stop the car. A great street setup will fade after just a few laps on track. Some guys run separate pads for street vs. track. Others just pick a pad compound in the middle of the scale and deal with the slight increase in brake dust on the wheels, slight noise when stopping at lights/signs, decent stopping capabilities on track and decent resistance to fade.


3.) Are you able to lock up your front tires? At the beginning and end of your session? If you are still able to lock up the brakes, or in your case engage the ABS, then you don't need to upgrade your brakes, you need to upgrade your tires to something stickier that can take advantage of the brake torque. If you are not, then you do need to look into a pad material with greater brake torque and/or higher operating temperature window.



so true..... I went from 11" fastbrake set up to Baer 13" 2 piston set up.....eventually to a 6 piston set up..... Honestly...I could have stayed with the fastbrake set up.

I had the same pads on the rear for 120000 miles......I have been @ every track event for the last 2 years.....

on a Honda, good pads, good tires.....and you are good to go

[berny2435]

Thanks for your comments, all are going into consideration.

point blank period I don't want a hard core TRACK SETUP with this car... . I know it is give or take. I'm not gutting this car for the track. It prob wont see over 3 HPDE weekends all of next year.

It has been proven that the SI front brakes can't handle intense HPDE sessions with sticky street tires and R comps.. . I am experienced with a faster FWD car so I am likely to take my setup to its limits and beyond. Why set myself up for a day of fading my stock brakes and ending my sessions early???

A few race teams just run TSX rotors and calipers on the 06+ Civic/RSX/TSX. The rotor is thicker but no larger in Diameter and the calipers are bigger as well. I think the piston size is pretty similar.

Another point is that I don't want to spend $250 on front brake pads, track them once and figure out they are not enough. I've gone this route with my last car and it was expensive. Basically $250 down the drain. If I would have just make a $300 upgrade for ITR brakes in the begining on my EG, I would have saved around $800 or more. 12.8" 4piston Fasbrakes kit is $725 and only 1" larger. Ask nicely for some cobalt pads through them and maybe the kit will run $850.

research is fun, thanks for the help guys.

[berny2435]

You're getting waaaay ahead of yourself here.
You want to stay away from 'serious' pads cause it will be too much for AutoX. Then you're talking abot a 12.8" Wilwood setup (which is in the 'serious' category BTW) with autocross pads. (???) Why would you spend all that money for 4/6 piston brake calipers and put mild pads on them? Then you mention upgrading the rear rotors to larger diameter, when all FF Hondas use very little rear brake. Totally unnecessary.



FYI I was bashing the powerslot setup hence the puking smiley face.. . I think it is unnecessary as well.

[dantana]

Thanks for your comments, all are going into consideration.

point blank period I don't want a hard core TRACK SETUP with this car... . I know it is give or take. I'm not gutting this car for the track. It prob wont see over 3 HPDE weekends all of next year.

It has been proven that the SI front brakes can't handle intense HPDE sessions with sticky street tires and R comps.. . I am experienced with a faster FWD car so I am likely to take my setup to its limits and beyond. Why set myself up for a day of fading my stock brakes and ending my sessions early???

A few race teams just run TSX rotors and calipers on the 06+ Civic/RSX/TSX. The rotor is thicker but no larger in Diameter and the calipers are bigger as well. I think the piston size is pretty similar.

Another point is that I don't want to spend $250 on front brake pads, track them once and figure out they are not enough. I've gone this route with my last car and it was expensive. Basically $250 down the drain. If I would have just make a $300 upgrade for ITR brakes in the begining on my EG, I would have saved around $800 or more. 12.8" 4piston Fasbrakes kit is $725 and only 1" larger. Ask nicely for some cobalt pads through them and maybe the kit will run $850.

research is fun, thanks for the help guys.


i jut wrote a huge reply and it timed me out. long story short, youve got a lot of wrong information above. and we are just trying to help you save some dough.
get an extra set of OEM rotors and high end pads and swap them out at the track. buy the RIGHT pads and you wont have wasted $250, or spent anyhting near that. all your brake upgrades your pondering over are great for racing, but they are alll systems that really help with heat dissapation(which your car WILL have a problem with over extended on track time). I mean how much benefit do you think you are you going to see in clapping force (not stopping force) on street or low end race tires?? In a 30min DE you should be fine dealing with the heat issue by cutting off your stock heatsheilds and taking an occasional cooldown lap.

""It has been proven that the SI front brakes can't handle intense HPDE sessions with sticky street tires and R comps.. . ""

really? what is happening?

lastly, "BRAKES DONT STOP CARS, TIRES DO!"

not flaming or bashing at all, just trying to help you out before you piss a bunch of money down the drain.

BTW, fading brakes in DE is related directly to pads, tires and fluid only

[berny2435]

People are fadding Hawk DTC-60 pads and the like on stock Civic Si brakes with SS lines and Motul 600. I don't want to go with that high of torque compound on a street setup. The dude said they would get spongey towards the end of sessions. The guy is a pretty hardcore HPDE guy as well.

So what I take from his experience is that I will get to his point at some time, maybe not the first time I track the car but I will get there.. . $725 upgrade which include pads, calipers, rotors and SS lines really isn't that much considering all the parts you are getting. Introductory price as of now.
http://fastbrakes.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28_165&products_id=1966

maybe Hawk Blacks will be enough with the greater heat dissipation of the setup and brake ducting

Regardless, the setup is still to be decide. Thanks for the input.

[BlueTeg]

It has been proven that the SI front brakes can't handle intense HPDE sessions with sticky street tires and R comps.. .

I am experienced with a faster FWD car so I am likely to take my setup to its limits and beyond. Why set myself up for a day of fading my stock brakes and ending my sessions early???



We don't doubt that the oem brakes may experience fade. What we're saying is that you don't need to invest a ton of money into different calipers and what not. Your oem calipers, some good Cobalt or Hawk pads, and some good fluid (ATE Blue or Motul 600) should be more than enough to give you rock hard brakes for a 20 minute HPDE session out here.

Aren't you the same guy that said he's done 6-7 days with NASA back in the East or Midwest? If you have 6-7 track days under your belt then you're still in the intermediate group out here (HPDE 2). Trust me, you're far from taking your car to the limit. Its understandable that you don't want to cut your day short with a car that can't go more than a couple laps without fading...thats we're telling you spend $30 on some fluid and $150-$175 on some good pads. That should be plenty for a 200hp, 2500 FF Honda.

Just a point of clarification: we're not a bunch of keyboard racers in here like you may see on H-T (cough ITR forum cough). The guys in here out on track just about every month whether its participating in HPDE, time trials, race group, or instructing. We're not just pulling shit out of our ass to sound knowledgable. It's your money and you can do what with it, but if you're driving a Honda on track then you're like the rest of us and want to stretch your dollar as far as it will go. Save the money on the fancy brake setups. Put it towards track time, nice tires or a personal driving coach.

[Tage]

Another consideration is the tracks out here aren't very hard on brakes so just because there are people out there fading a Hawk DTC-60 doesn't mean you'll be able to out here on AZ tracks.

You mentioned Hawk Blacks and IMO that "might" be acceptable. I had them on my car and it stopped great with a Fastbrakes/Wilwood 11.75" front setup. What surprised me was how well the car stops even when the brakes are cold.
Well enough that I think they could be used as a street/track pad if you're hell bent on not swapping pads and just using one pad all around. My brakes are pretty big for how light my car is (2200#) so with your car being heavier the brakes should generate heat even faster and stop even better when cold.

While this may be cheaper and less work initially,I would venture to say that in the long run it would not be a wise choice. IMO, running a stock'ish pad for DD and then a track pad will result in less wheel cleaning AND longer all around pad life which will equal less operating expense for you.

I would agree with no upgrading the rear brakes besides just a slight pad upgrade. I did a big brake kit on the rear of my car and I regret it. It has taken a lot of work, custom prop valve and 3 different combinations of brake pads to figure out the proper brake balance for my car again (i.e. I was constantly locking up the rears). If you're trying to avoid that hassle don't upgrade the rears unless it's a tried and trued system. With ABS, it's likely not an issue but you get the point.

[berny2435]

point taken. the car weighs ~ 2850 curb weight per the books. A fat piggy and I don't have any near future plans for lightnening her up accept for lighter rims and installing my odyssey ltw battery that was from my old car.

I'm going to check into brake ducting and see what I can do. If the setup looks good enough to roll with on the track, I'll go with 2 setups (track/dd)

For my first upgrade it looks like I'm going with 17x8 rims with 235/40/17 Dunlop Direzza star specs. TR Motorpsort MT1 rims are callin my name I think. 16.5lb rim for $250 a pop.

About the Hawk Blacks, they sound like a good all around pad like you were saying. Using them for DD/AutoX/HPDE sounds doable on a system that dissapates heat better than stock Si brakes. But then again, its a $800 cost vs a $350 cost for brakes.

[Tage]

point taken. the car weighs ~ 2850 curb weight per the books. A fat piggy and I don't have any near future plans for lightnening her up accept for lighter rims and installing my odyssey ltw battery that was from my old car.

I'm going to check into brake ducting and see what I can do. If the setup looks good enough to roll with on the track, I'll go with 2 setups (track/dd)

For my first upgrade it looks like I'm going with 17x8 rims with 235/40/17 Dunlop Direzza star specs. TR Motorpsort MT1 rims are callin my name I think. 16.5lb rim for $250 a pop.

About the Hawk Blacks, they sound like a good all around pad like you were saying. Using them for DD/AutoX/HPDE sounds doable on a system that dissapates heat better than stock Si brakes. But then again, its a $800 cost vs a $350 cost for brakes.

With that being said, don't bother with the Hawk Blacks. I don't think they will be nearly aggressive enough for a track only pad (on your setup). At an absolute minimum get a Hawk Blue or better yet some HT-10's. I am skeptical that you would need a DTC-60 or 70 but those would certainly do the trick as well.

Hit up Brian @ Fastbrakes and tell him "Tage" sent you. He's local to Phoenix and would likely price match whatever is out there on the internet. Plus, it's always good to support the "locals".

[BlueTeg]

+1 for Brian :thumbup:

[riceboy88]

good info in here. looking to get my 06 si out there. and where do you guys buy this brake fluid that you guys are talking about????

[BlueTeg]

Call Jeremy (KineticGSR on AZHT) at Apex/UMS. They stock the ATE Blue and are even close to you in the SE valley.

[SlowCivicHmm]

good info in here. Looking to get my 06 si out there. And where do you guys buy this brake fluid that you guys are talking about????

smirf jizz ftw!!

[riceboy88]

Call Jeremy (KineticGSR on AZHT) at Apex/UMS. They stock the ATE Blue and are even close to you in the SE valley.

will do gabe.

[Vtecracer]

I will tell you what i had Ryan and see what you can do to match it for cheapness and longevity if that is the goal for this car for DE2. I was running my 4 door gsr at the track on falken azenis (15") and was using STOCK GSR 10.2" calipers and rotors. I had a set of rotors on the car with factory US honda/acura OEM pads for a daily driver. I bought a set of used Carbotech xp-10s from Tage and another set of GSR STOCK rotors that were bedded with the carbotech compound. I switched out rotors and pads for the track days (once a month it took 30 minutes tops). I was running stock gsr rear rotors( 9" ) and stock oem pads in the rear. When the car was boosted (6lbs supercharger) i was still able to lock up my front wheels (engage ABS) with my Azenis and the brakes i had. SO really the only upgrade i did was the front pads and ATE super blue. The car had a one inch master cylinder and the ABS was on its way out and I was still running stock brake lines as well and the car was near 200whp and weighed in at a fatty 2860 with me in it. I did not have brake fade and did not burn up the rotors or pads....in fact i am still using the same USED pads i got from TAge and they have 5 track days on them plus whatever he put on them and they work great still after all this time.

[Tage]

I will tell you what i had Ryan and see what you can do to match it for cheapness and longevity if that is the goal for this car for DE2. I was running my 4 door gsr at the track on falken azenis (15") and was using STOCK GSR 10.2" calipers and rotors. I had a set of rotors on the car with factory US honda/acura OEM pads for a daily driver. I bought a set of used Carbotech xp-10s from Tage and another set of GSR STOCK rotors that were bedded with the carbotech compound. I switched out rotors and pads for the track days (once a month it took 30 minutes tops). I was running stock gsr rear rotors( 9" ) and stock oem pads in the rear. When the car was boosted (6lbs supercharger) i was still able to lock up my front wheels (engage ABS) with my Azenis and the brakes i had. SO really the only upgrade i did was the front pads and ATE super blue. The car had a one inch master cylinder and the ABS was on its way out and I was still running stock brake lines as well and the car was near 200whp and weighed in at a fatty 2860 with me in it. I did not have brake fade and did not burn up the rotors or pads....in fact i am still using the same USED pads i got from TAge and they have 5 track days on them plus whatever he put on them and they work great still after all this time.
FWIW, I would estimate a Carbotech XP-10 to be similar in aggressiveness to a Hawk Black.

[SlowCivicHmm]

hmmm I wonder how long my HP+ will last....lol

This is the best "tech" thread evar!! lots of good info....good job whores....

[Tage]

hmmm I wonder how long my HP+ will last....lol

This is the best "tech" thread evar!! lots of good info....good job whores....

My guess is less than a year if you DD on them too. If you ONLY track them probably 1-2 years considering your power and speeds down the straights.

[berny2435]

hmmm I wonder how long my HP+ will last....lol

This is the best "tech" thread evar!! lots of good info....good job whores....


haha! I do what I can to stir up the masses on technical stuff. I typically research the shat out of my mods before I do them.

woot woot to actually having some local honda track rats to talk to. Back in the corn fields I think I saw one Civic total at my track events. Ricers, street racers and broke arse wannabes around there mostly.

[SlowCivicHmm]

My guess is less than a year if you DD on them too. If you ONLY track them probably 1-2 years considering your power and speeds down the straights.

thx Tage.....sounds good to me and my pocket book!!

[PhoenixB16]

haha! I do what I can to stir up the masses on technical stuff. I typically research the shat out of my mods before I do them.

woot woot to actually having some local honda track rats to talk to. Back in the corn fields I think I saw one Civic total at my track events. Ricers, street racers and broke arse wannabes around there mostly.

Where at in illinois......Ive run Blackhawk a few times...

[yosshaa]

i run cobalts up front and in the back, ate fluid, ss brake lines.
I would give you a review but like Chuck Norris, I never have had to use brakes.
:devil1:

[berny2435]

I evaluated my options for brakes. Most likely I will be buying TSX calipers and rotors. They are direct bolt on. Nearly same piston size but larger caliper fitting larger brake pads. Same rotor diameter but is a 28mm thick rotor instead of 25mm which will give me better heat dissipation along with the larger caliper and pads. The passenger side brake ducting looks to be a tough challenge. The Civic Type R in japan comes stock with the following:

http://www.gtmotoring.com/mm5/civic-fgfd-jdm.htm
$145 a set
http://www.gtmotoring.com/mm5/images/CTR-web/cool-image%5B1%5D.jpg
http://www.gtmotoring.com/mm5/images/CTR-web/cool-image%5B1%5D.jpg
What you guys think? Worth it?????


Might be all I need to get by. I can get the TSX calipers and rotors for Sub $250 bucks from a dude I know. It'll probably be March or April before I track the car though.

[SlowCivicHmm]

i run cobalts up front and in the back, ate fluid, ss brake lines.
I would give you a review but like Chuck Norris, I never have had to use brakes.
:devil1:


^^^ ban for bringing up an old thread....lol

get offline and get the turtle back out......lol

[dantana]

What you guys think? Worth it?????



nope, better braking upgrades out there for the money.
but then again we already told you that ;)

[BlueTeg]

Dude, leave the brakes alone and just get on track already. That car is more than capable in its current form, for what you'll be able to throw at it. TRUST US

[PhoenixB16]

Just drive the motherfucker for christs sake. Fuck.

[berny2435]

common people, its discussion.. . $250 shipped for TSX calipers and rotors? you'd buy them too.. . This way I don't have to buy Si pads, figure out they fade and then buy TSX pads. TSX setup is far superior soley b/c of rotor thickness and pad size.

The Type R brake duct is just up for discussion and to show you guys what it looks like. I'm not even sure it will fit the US spec Civic bumpers. Looks like a waste of money to me.

I guess I'll just keep shit to myself if this is the kind of responses I'm going to get in this forum.

[SlowCivicHmm]

^^^^^ nah homie......


you have to come to the track 1st...then discusss....lol

[berny2435]

point taken.. . spring time. I'm feelin the car out now with AutoX at doing some minor suspension work. AutoX is more fun out here than it was back in Iowa. Actually worth my time and money.

[dantana]

I guess I'll just keep shit to myself if this is the kind of responses I'm going to get in this forum.
.
keep your discussion to yourself if you dont like our answers but in the end we've been there and done that. (most of us have ~8yrs experience racing/tracking hondas on track)
yea your on a diff chasis but in the end its the same. we have all played around with diff rotor thicknesses, piston ODs, etc..
show up at the turkey event and BS with some of us if you wanna feel us out.:clapper:


and as far as ducting, you can custom make it for half the cost of honda's oem at 2x + the performance.

Now, if you did the tsx rotors, clappers and custom pads, youd have a setup that is superior to your si setup, but in the end pad material and tire is #1

[Tage]

.
Now, if you did the tsx rotors, clappers and custom pads, youd have a setup that is superior to your si setup, but in the end pad material and tire is #1

x2

I have 11.75" rotors and Willwood 4 piston calipers with Cobalt Spec B pads (and the car is only 2200-2250 w/ me) and I still fade them on tracks (or sections of track) that are hard on brakes. I had Hawk Blacks before and they were fine at PIR but tracks that are harder on brakes like FIR East, they weren't enough. I'm going to step up to Hawk HT-10 pads next but I think the real answer is brake ducts. They only fade if I'm on the brakes HARD a few times within a few seconds of each other. As long as they have 10 seconds or so to cool down between hard braking, they bite very hard and don't fade. I thought with the huge brakes (relative to the weight of my car) that I wouldn't need a very aggressive pad but it really comes down to good pads.

[BlueTeg]

common people, its discussion.. . $250 shipped for TSX calipers and rotors? you'd buy them too.. .

This way I don't have to buy Si pads, figure out they fade and then buy TSX pads. TSX setup is far superior soley b/c of rotor thickness and pad size.

I guess I'll just keep shit to myself if this is the kind of responses I'm going to get in this forum.

No I wouldn't. Not if I could retain the oem system and just use pads designed for the track and good fluid with a high boiling point. Why?
1.) Its OEM. Less problems since its designed for the car. (brake balance, prop valve bias, fitment)
2.) Its lighter. thinner rotor = less weight

Don't be so quick to dismiss the Si braking system. Get REAL pads. Cobalt XR3s or 2s....Hawk blues....etc. Get REAL fluid. ATE blue, Motul, etc. If you have pads that are designed to run hot and fluid thats designed to run hot you're not going to get fade. Have you shopped around to see what kind of brake pad options you have with the TSX calipers vs. the Si calipers? If your options are limited, then its not necessarily superior system. If the rotors are more expensive and your budget is limited, then its not necessarily a superior system. If the brake bias and/or prop valve ratio isn't ideal for the TSX front calipers then its not necessarily a superior setup.

So you're pissed because you came here asking for feedback on a certain mod and we didn't jump on the hypemiester bandwagon (al a honda-tech ITR forum style) and say how awesome the mod is. You asked for opinions and we gave you honest feedback based on track experience, then you get bent because its not the answer that you wanted to hear. :|

[berny2435]

.


Now, if you did the tsx rotors, clappers and custom pads, youd have a setup that is superior to your si setup, but in the end pad material and tire is #1

Compas 360 racing team uses TSX calipers and rotors on their cars. Good enough for them = good enough for me. http://www.compass360.com/racing/2008/2008/10/burrows-and-hopwood-stage-strong-encore.html
I can get TSX caliper and rotors for under $250 shipped. It'd be almost stupid for me not to upgrade.. . should really be the end of discussion.. . I'm not some street racer trying to make his way into RR because I saw the Speed World Challenge cars on TV. I've been through HPDE enough to be solo'd in a fully suspensioned out 95 Civic with K20a2 swap. ITR front brakes with GSR discs rear. and yes, I tried stock 10.3" fronts with Carbotech XP8 pads and it wasn't enough even on street tires so I upgraded to ITRs. Been there done that and I'll seeya when I seeya

[berny2435]

No I wouldn't. Not if I could retain the oem system and just use pads designed for the track and good fluid with a high boiling point. Why?
1.) Its OEM. Less problems since its designed for the car. (brake balance, prop valve bias, fitment)
2.) Its lighter. thinner rotor = less weight

Don't be so quick to dismiss the Si braking system. Get REAL pads. Cobalt XR3s or 2s....Hawk blues....etc. Get REAL fluid. ATE blue, Motul, etc. If you have pads that are designed to run hot and fluid thats designed to run hot you're not going to get fade. Have you shopped around to see what kind of brake pad options you have with the TSX calipers vs. the Si calipers? If your options are limited, then its not necessarily superior system. If the rotors are more expensive and your budget is limited, then its not necessarily a superior system. If the brake bias and/or prop valve ratio isn't ideal for the TSX front calipers then its not necessarily a superior setup.

So you're pissed because you came here asking for feedback on a certain mod and we didn't jump on the hypemiester bandwagon (al a honda-tech ITR forum style) and say how awesome the mod is. You asked for opinions and we gave you honest feedback based on track experience, then you get bent because its not the answer that you wanted to hear. :|

nothing you have said leads me to believe you know anything about the Civic Si EBD braking system or the actual size of the TSX calipers. The TSX caliper is larger in size to hold a bigger pad and clamp a thicker rotor but the piston size is only about 2mm larger. Brake bias in respect to hydraulics should not be a problem. I will however need to upgrade rear pad compound to compliment the fronts b/c of the EBD system.

you guys have jumped on the badwagon of thinking anyone who has 50 posts in a forum is some retarded nub and has no experience. It's a bit tiring trying to defend myself in every post.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I think Gabe and Dan are trying to point out the fact that you haven't even put the stock Si calipers/rotors through their paces yet to even find out if you really need to upgrade.

I also vote to get some really good pads/ATE Super Blue/sweet brake ducting before you blow cash on calipers/rotors.

At $250, you're saying that you should do it because you'd be stupid not to. Instead, take that $250 and save it towards Comp. School or towards a full weekend instead of parts to replace parts that you want to dismiss without testing. DE time > parts.

Remember, you're not out to set a personal best time in DE; that's for TA and TT.

[Tage]

Compas 360 racing team uses TSX calipers and rotors on their cars. Good enough for them = good enough for me. http://www.compass360.com/racing/2008/2008/10/burrows-and-hopwood-stage-strong-encore.html
I can get TSX caliper and rotors for under $250 shipped. It'd be almost stupid for me not to upgrade.. . should really be the end of discussion.. . I'm not some street racer trying to make his way into RR because I saw the Speed World Challenge cars on TV. I've been through HPDE enough to be solo'd in a fully suspensioned out 95 Civic with K20a2 swap. ITR front brakes with GSR discs rear. and yes, I tried stock 10.3" fronts with Carbotech XP8 pads and it wasn't enough even on street tires so I upgraded to ITRs. Been there done that and I'll seeya when I seeya

I bet they don't use the stock prop valve. More likely the race brake line plumbing system. I thought I was a bad ass doing it to my car but almost wish I hadn't. I'm not a pro, so I don't have the funds to properly test the system for correct balance. The result has cost me to lock up the rear brakes twice now. Once at Mid-Ohio causing significant damage and now at BW as well causing quite a bit of damage too.

In theory a larger piston surface will provide more braking power in the front but since it needs to displace more fluid, chances are you'll get more clampnig force in the rear (on initial pedal application) potentially causing bad initial bite or worse yet too much rear brake bias on *initial* braking.

[BlueTeg]

you guys have jumped on the badwagon of thinking anyone who has 50 posts in a forum is some retarded nub and has no experience.

It's a bit tiring trying to defend myself in every post.

Your post count has nothing to do with it. Your experience on track does.

Instead of taking a step back and saying, "wow, all these guys that have been on track that are instructors with the club....or national caliber time attack drivers (in Tage's case), are saying hold your horses on the brake upgrades. Maybe they know what they're talking about. Maybe they're trying to help me." Instead you take it as a personal attack. And that we don't know what we're talking about, because we haven't driven that exact setup. Its not rocket science man, its an FF Honda. Whether it weighs 2000 lbs. with 200 HP or 2800 lbs. with 100 HP, the principles of souping these cars up and then taking them out on track are the same.

I'm done with "attacking you" in this thread (attack = telling you not to spend your hard earned dollar on parts that you don't need or that will just cause you more headache than they're worth....or both). Do what you want to do. Spend your money how you see fit. Good luck with your build hope to you see out on track....regardless of what brakes you have I guarantee you'll love it. :thumbup:

[BlueTeg]

I think Gabe and Dan are trying to point out the fact that you haven't even put the stock Si calipers/rotors through their paces yet to even find out if you really need to upgrade.


:thumbsup:


At $250, you're saying that you should do it because you'd be stupid not to. Instead, take that $250 and save it towards Comp. School or towards a full weekend instead of parts to replace parts that you want to dismiss without testing. DE time > parts.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[PhoenixB16]

Dont ask questions if you do not want to hear EVERYONES opinions around here.( shrugs) They are trying to save you a few bucks.But,i stand where i did before. Go to the track,meet a few of us,and drive the motherfucker.And be nice to your tech officials.lol..........

[dantana]

I bet they don't use the stock prop valve.

you mean distribution block:doobie:

[berny2435]

I think Gabe and Dan are trying to point out the fact that you haven't even put the stock Si calipers/rotors through their paces yet to even find out if you really need to upgrade.

I also vote to get some really good pads/ATE Super Blue/sweet brake ducting before you blow cash on calipers/rotors.

At $250, you're saying that you should do it because you'd be stupid not to. Instead, take that $250 and save it towards Comp. School or towards a full weekend instead of parts to replace parts that you want to dismiss without testing. DE time > parts.

Remember, you're not out to set a personal best time in DE; that's for TA and TT.

In an effort to prove myself one last time.. . hopefully a few of you will actually understand and quit :poke: at me.


It's $250, not $3,000 for rotora or stoptech.. . People spend $250 on intake systems. I however have not done one power mod to my car and really don't plan on it untill after I have coilovers in posession.. .

I've been to the track and seen multiple Acura RSX-S fade their stock brake systems which were only upgraded with pads. They were new drivers too and not even pushing their cars near the level I do.

Again, I have experience, you are preaching to the quire over and over again here. I'd rock stock but from other people's experience, stock fails.

I'm nearly 85% sure that if I do HPDE they will fade. I'm tough on brakes and so is a 2850lb DRY weight car/3150 with driver/3350 with passenger. If your 2500lb race weight acura integra or civic rescently had an extra 850 lbs added to it, I'm 100% sure your current brake system would probably over heat and fail within 5 laps.

There's another good point some of you may be missing, my car isn't paid off, therefore I don't want any problems with my brakes. If I know the brakes are lackluster on my car, should I be shot for paying attention to the issue????

$250 on brakes is a small price to pay for the confidence and safety that the upgrade will provide. I'm not going out there thinking I'm going to beat everyone, I don't think like that. I got out to have fun and be safe while I'm doing it. I think good brakes is one of the basic safety factors that any track person looks into. Early model Hondas have it made b/c everything is tried and true. The added weight and complexity of the new Si throws a kink into the typical honda equation. upgrade pads and fluids and call it a day

Compas 360 as far as I know, from talking with a guy that works with them, doesn't not use an aftermarket prop valve system in the FG2 Civic Si. It is stock hydro system with just aftermarket Cobalt bads, brake fluid and OEM TSX rotors and calipers.

The ABS/EBD system does react in weird ways as far as brake bias. Some say that if you just upgrade fronts, it actually trys to put more brake pressure on rears. The best upgrade you can do is keeping the same caliper piston size but upgrade brake integrity and cooling capabilities. In this case, the TSX caliper only has about 2mm difference in piston size. Basically a perfect upgrade. I'm not increasing swept rotor surface or piston size but I am increasing pad contact/heat disspationa and rotor thickness/heat dissipation.

EBD was divised by Honda and other companies to actually help take into account loads in the car or on a trailer. The main function of EBD is to redistribute brake bais. The brake bais mainly getting sent to the rear. For a few reasons it seems like adding larger front rotors and caliper pistons also seems to send more brake bias to the rear. I have not been shown conclusive data that scientifically states why this happens. I'd like to know the EBD logic in which makes the brake system send more rear bias when under hard braking. The only thing I can think of is that the vehicle has accelerometers in it which senses the rear getting too light and tries to settle it down by applying more brake pressure back there. this puts the rears at risk of locking up. This logic basically contridicts ABS logic in that it trys to prevent wheels from locking up. That being said, TSX caliper pistons only being 2mm larger than Si pistons is a very good thing.

If anyone here can scientifically prove to me that upgrading my brakes to a TSX caliper and rotor is at all a bad thing or will infact cause bias issues, be my guest. I wont upgrade then. I'd love to see actual information from an OEM or aftermarket specialist in the area of Brake bias with 3 channel ABS which incorporate traction control and EBD.

[Bret Broski]

I've been to the track and seen multiple Acura RSX-S fade their stock brake systems which were only upgraded with pads.

They were new drivers too and not even pushing their cars near the level I do.

Again, I have experience, you are preaching to the quire over and over again here. I'd rock stock but from other people's experience, stock fails.


What track in AZ?
I know of ONE RSX driver that tracks his car more than twice a year and that's Armando.
If you just upgrade the pads and leave the oem fluid in there, then yes, you're going to get brake fade regardless of what caliper, rotor, or maxipad you're running.

Aren't you a new driver? What's your experience level?

There are 2 RSXs that are tracked on a regular basis here in AZ. Armando's and the K-sport RSX-R driven by Brady Dohrman. KSport rides on the oem Brembo calipers. Armando uses oem brake hardware with race pads and fluids.

[yosshaa]

this thread is back from the dead with even more catty bench racing.
jus take advise from the people who have actually been out there putting their brakes to the limits.
Hell if you act right maybe one of us can help instruct you so you're not so hard on your brakes in the first place.

[EG6-DC2]

Hell if you act right maybe one of us can help instruct you so you're not so hard on your brakes in the first place.


I'm willing to bet that this is the reason that the beginner's that he was refering to about fading brakes. Seeing that those people were new, they drag on the brakes a lot longer in the braking zones. That constant heat will cause them to fade. I bet that those people could have done better without fading had they worked on their braking zones and techniques.

[berny2435]

Again, no I'm not a new driver and you'd know that if you read more than 2 posts BRET BROSKI

I'm from the midwest so I went to the tacks in the Midwest. Heartland Park Topeka Kansas and Mid American Motorplex mainly. Look them up if you want the config at full track.

I have 9 days experience of HPDE along with helping out a ITB 2 car VW team. 1st event was a 2day BMW club, was passed off to do group 2. 2nd was a 2day event with Porsche club and I was solo'd after having 2 different instructors in my car. One was the a BMW club racing chairmen, the other, an actual race driver. My other events are single track days with a lapping group called Find the line. I was also running in their fast/race group after I went with R comps. The find the line lapping days are 6-7, 20-30 minute sessions. Instruction as needed.

I've never done a comp school but got to the point where I almost signed up for one as I had purchased roll cage for my last track car to become a racecar. It was not my DD. I sold it to move out here and put a small dp on a 350Z. I traded the Z in for my current Civic Si is my DD. Obviously a reason why I want a brake system I don't have to worry about failing or fading to the point it ends my day early.

I still have a lot to learn, but that doesn't make buying $250 worth of brake calipers and rotors is a bad idea.. .

I'll be the first to admit when I don't know something. I'm an Engineer and I hate when people just say something bc it sounds good. When I talk about technical stuff, I usually back it up with knowledge, evidence or real world applications.

Again, if you can prove that TSX calipers wont work on my car, go ahead.. .

I'd like a FWD instructor. I'm sure I would benefit, but if you are going to judge me on a $250 OEM brake upgrade, I'd rather pass.. .

I wonder if yall would still be bitching if I had a 96 integra and went with 2000 ITR front calipers machined to fit stock knuckles???

[Bret Broski]

I wonder if yall would still be bitching if I had a 96 integra and went with 2000 ITR front calipers machined to fit stock knuckles???

We probably would be "bitching" (is that what you call it when you ask people for help and they don't give you the answer you're looking for?), unless it sounded like they were necessary.

I don't think anyone here has an engineering degree, so pardon us for being simple. We're just some good ole boys from the desert who like to flog their cars on track once a month and get our speed fix. All 4 of the tracks that are used for road course events are pretty easy on brakes here. The 5th, AMP, would be the only one that really taxes a car's brake system. Since that track is closed indefinitely, you don't have to worry about that one. :wave1:

[berny2435]

I'm willing to bet that this is the reason that the beginner's that he was refering to about fading brakes. Seeing that those people were new, they drag on the brakes a lot longer in the braking zones. That constant heat will cause them to fade. I bet that those people could have done better without fading had they worked on their braking zones and techniques.

draggin brakes can cause fade, yes, I've probably experienced this. In fact I know I have. In my first HPDE I was lapping 10 or more of my 22 or so car group. it didn't matter where I started either.. . I'd pit to get away from a pack.

shorter, harder zones uses more brake energy, more brake energy = more heat that is pretty obvious.. . shorter braking zones only gets you cooler brakes if you are actually slowing to a corner entry speed that is greater than what it was before/what you are comparing to.

Regardless of style, why would you want a brake system that only caters to one style of braking??

For a DD car that doubles as a hpde car, I'd want a forgiving brake system. One that I can trust to go 100% and one that I can sit back and enjoy myself on the track if I'm in traffic, dragging my brakes untill I get the chance to pass.

again, compass 360 uses TSX calipers and rotors on their TSX, RSX and Civic Si race cars. Fully prepped, using R comps, less weight but carrying more speed than I = a good system to benchmark my car against especially since it's OEM equipment. If you think otherwise, i'm not sure what's wrong with you.

[berny2435]

We probably would be "bitching" (is that what you call it when you ask people for help and they don't give you the answer you're looking for?), unless it sounded like they were necessary.

I don't think anyone here has an engineering degree, so pardon us for being simple. We're just some good ole boys from the desert who like to flog their cars on track once a month and get our speed fix.


So me stating that I'm an Engineer somehow is bash against you or most people here in this forum???

I don't see how me saying """"I'll be the first to admit when I don't know something. I'm an Engineer and I hate when people just say something bc it sounds good. When I talk about technical stuff, I usually back it up with knowledge, evidence or real world applications.
""""
is trying to knock any of you???

Non of you know who I am past reading my posts so I thought I'd maybe stick some personal info into my post. Should I be sorry for you taking offense to my career choice?

[EG6-DC2]

If you want to change out the rotors and calipers, I say go ahead. It's not my money to spend, so spend it as you wish.

I am one of those integra people who upgraded my brakes. I have a 96 Spec ITR which runs the 4x114 and GSR sized rotors and pads. Did I need to upgrade my brakes to the 98 spec/USDM ITR sized rotors and brake pads....no, but I did it for ease of replacement parts. Such as the lack of readily available rotors for the 4x114 in the stock size and the fact that I had 2 ITRs at the same time and it was more efficient for me to have interchangable brake componants. I also know that my prop valve is the same as the one used in the 98 spec, so my balance isn't thrown off.

[Bret Broski]

I don't see how me saying """"I'll be the first to admit when I don't know something. I'm an Engineer and I hate when people just say something bc it sounds good. When I talk about technical stuff, I usually back it up with knowledge, evidence or real world applications.
""""


You asked your question on page 2. Everyone pretty much gave you the same answer which was: don't worry about the tsx stuff, just upgrade the pads and fluid and get out there. That wasn't the answer you were looking for and you've spend the last few pages of this thread debating with the guys that have real world experience on the exact tracks that you'll be driving in the same platform of car.

There is no substitute for real world experience chief. As an engineer, you of all people should know that applied experience trumps theory.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

again, compass 360 uses TSX calipers and rotors on their TSX, RSX and Civic Si race cars. Fully prepped, using R comps, less weight but carrying more speed than I = a good system to benchmark my car against especially since it's OEM equipment. If you think otherwise, i'm not sure what's wrong with you.

See, even though it's an OEM upgrade, I don't like this comparison. I'm not going to go back to specs on the RTR Integra's and do what they do for anything/everything. I'm not an RTR driver nor do I have an RTR Integra. I do upgrades to my car based on my track time and my driving style. That's what HPDE events are for me; a chance to test out different things and a chance to practice driving techniques/track etiquette/etc.

[JoshDC2]

And I know what some will say...no rear bar? How the hell did you drive that turd? Ask Tage: even he said it wasn't so bad. The car would turn fine but be a little pushy in a large corner (like 6-7 at PIR and 4 East).

hehe i still havent mounted the ITR bar on my car yet. Its really not hard to drive the car without the rear sway bar. the rear just has no urge to come out at all.

I say you should do 1 day on track with your stock brakes. Just to get used to the new car on track. Then if you feel any fade or just dont like the stock brakes you can go on to the tsx brakes and rate the difference. if you just put them on now and go out theere for the first time inthis car you wont know if there was much measurable difference and if it was worth your money or now.

i agree that 250 is a good price for new rotors and calipers and on paper it looks better but i would say to try the stocks completely stock once then go from there.

[berny2435]

That wasn't the answer you were looking for and you've spend the last few pages of this thread debating with the guys that have real world experience on the exact tracks that you'll be driving in the same platform of car.

There is no substitute for real world experience chief. As an engineer, you of all people should know that applied experience trumps theory.

no one here is tracking a FG2.

Anyone and I do mean anyone, can learn from someone elses experieces as well. From what I've gathered, the stock system fades in multiple situations/setups. I'll learn from others, saving me money, time, failure.. . The best leasons learned are typically acuired by making your own mistakes. When it comes to stuffing my car into a wall b/c I didn't upgrade a $250 component on a $23,000 car, I'd say thats a HUGE mistake. As an Engineer, I asses risks as well as dealing with designs, manufacturing and business process/proceedure and management.

I care very little about measuring stock performance vs TSX or most other upgrades. I know what a failry descent setup FWD track car feels like. I've been in a race mini and multiple other RWD race cars. You go with what you know works. Just like you upgrade your brake pads and tires for the track. The TSX mod for the Civic Si will soon become the first upgrade besides tires that you do to a Civic Si before you track it. The reason more people haven't done this is b/c there aren't many people tracking the Si out there and most of the RSX guys don't seem to know about the upgrade either for some reason. Maybe they're all caught up on BBK kits b/c they look cool. The TSX upgrade doesn't look cool b/c it doesn't look bigger than stock. The rotor is the same size.

[Bret Broski]

Superior Racing Development campaigns an FG2 in race group. Maybe talk to them and see what they're seeing on their car.

The three braking zones at PIR don't have walls that you'll hit from faded brakes....just from lifting when you're not supposed to or just being a bonehead (the oval). NASA doesn't drive FIR again until April/May of next year.

[berny2435]

Superior Racing Development campaigns an FG2 in race group. Maybe talk to them and see what they're seeing on their car.

The three braking zones at PIR don't have walls that you'll hit from faded brakes....just from lifting when you're not supposed to or just being a bonehead (the oval). NASA doesn't drive FIR again until April/May of next year.

I talked with a few of those guys at the track. Their first shake down with the car I guess it was. I touched on this earlier in the thread. The had problems with their setup, some mechanical and I think they accidently left their brake fluid resevior cap off or it came loose.. . I spoted that in the pit after they about caused a wreck and flat spotted the shit out their front tires.

they use Willwood Dynalite calipers on 12.6" rotors along with a OEM rear caliper relocation bracket to allow for a 2" larger rotor. I'm not sure on the pads or a prop valve.

when talking with them, either they didn't want to talk about their setup or they couldn't describe their own brake system to me. I can understand if and why they didn't want to discuss to far in depth, they just about crashed and pissed some people off.. . Also, if I didn't put the car together, I wouldn't try and talk to technical about it either. Especially to someone they don't know. If I remember correctly, the driver and one of his buddies didn't even know what spring rate the Ksport coilovers were.. .

[EG6-DC2]

I'm pretty sure someone built that car for them. They just poured a bunch of money into the car without really knowing the complete setup and were just racing it.

I could be wrong, but from what I observed about them the last time I was out there is that they don't know much about the cars other than they are told that the cars are ready and are fast. I think they are running too much car for the skill.

[berny2435]

If their Willwoods were custom made to use the same piston surface area, maybe they did their homework but I can't speak for whomever built the car or ordered the parts. I know of one person who made this setup for his FG2, it worked pretty good.

If I was entering my first race (back of car had rookie sticker on it), It wouldn't be my first day with the car and I wouldn't have been on hoosiers. I kept my mouth shut after they attempted to explain their setup. Regardless, I still look forward to shootin the shit with them at the track the next time I'm out. We track rats have to work together.

[riceboy88]

no one here is tracking a FG2.

im looking to getting my FG2 on the track soon for my first time ever

[SlowCivicHmm]

Go to the track,meet a few of us,and drive the motherfucker.And be nice to your tech officials.lol..........

^^^^ what he said!!! or FAIL!!

Tech is very helpful to the honda crowd seeing we all usually pit together near tech...hahaa

[Tage]

you mean distribution block:doobie:

Nope. I meant prop valve (which is also a distribution block but it's also a prop valve).

As far as the calipers and rotors, just buy them already and quit talking about them!

Additionally, as an engineer, you of all people should know that if you make a change to a component (regardless of how small the change), the system is not going to work the same. It might not be noticable enough to make a difference in reality but it's still a change in piston diameter size which all that fancy braking stuff isn't aware of. I do agree with you that you need some pretty significant upgrades in the braking department. I'd be surprised if the stock system didn't fade like a MF during a basic HPDE session, so here's what you should do:

1. Buy that TSX stuff and get it on the car
2. Decide what pads to get

Considering the weight of your car, I don't see how you're going to be able to run one pad for both DD and track use. All these people who say they did a pad and fulid upgrade but still fade got pussy pads like an Axxis Ultimate or Hawk HPS. For your car regardless of what calipers and rotors you're using is going to need a beefy pad. If you go with a Hawk the minimum I would recommend is a Blue if you're going to run street tires and HT-10 if you're going to run R-tires. If you go with Carbotech the min I would run would be a XP-10 / XP-12.

Keep in mind the cost of the TSX brakes will be $250 + a set of DD pads + a set of track pads.

Keeping your stock system will just equal the cost of only one set of aggressive track pads (like the Raybestos pads that Dan is recommending!).

[berny2435]

Fo sho! Thanks for the advice everyone.

I'll look into the RAybestos pads for the TSX setup and see if they are tame enough for street tires. I guess 350Z guys with OEM non brembo brakes are using them with descent success. Hawk blues really aren't up there on my list. We'll see, price may come into play.. .

[BlueTeg]

If he (or anyone else for that matter) is thinking about running those Raybestos race pads on their daily driver or with street tires, I would say be careful.


dontside is the are very easy to lock up and need to be carefully modulated. no way you can run these on street tires


If they're as good of a race pad as Sturla is raving about, they're not likely to be a great street pad. You can't have a pad that has: excellent wear characteristics, gentle on rotors, low dust, low noise, great at stopping when ice cold on the street, great at stopping when they're 500+ degrees on track, easy to modulate the bite.....all in one package.

[berny2435]

I'm not thinking of using them as street pads. I'm using sticky streets as HPDE tires. Only race pads that I know of that are streetable(b/c I've used them) are Carbotech XP8s on EG w/10.3 brakes and Satisfied Gransport GS3s(which are hard to find) on EG w/ITR brakes.

When I said the 350Z guys are using them with success I was also implying on the race track as well.

[yosshaa]

imo race pads on the street is dumb, due to operating temperatures, noise, dust, cost. Of course there always exceptions to the rule.




can we let this thread die now.... again:thumbup:

[Tage]

I'm using sticky streets as HPDE tires.

That's an oxymoron...

:smile:

[berny2435]

Nah, lets keep this thread going for another few months lol haha. And yeah, I was joking about sticky streets.. .

Since I'm such a noob and no one knows me around here, I'll state again, my previous HPDE car was on 225 RA1s. Was a world of difference b/t the Hankook RS2s I ran before those. I'll be on 140 treadwear Potenza RE70s.