Temp problems

[MrRline2010]

well it appears it only happens when the motor is on load(running 4-6k rpm at around 60+ mph. The temp will go from about mid range up near the high range. I plan to try and dump the coolant first to see if that fixes it if not does this sound like a thermostat problem?

[Rufus]

Prolly, how many miles? Can you see the fans turn on? I have Phillips old radiator if you wanna try it out.

[MrRline2010]

125,000 on the car. Way over since last coolant dump. I haven't stopped to see if they did turn on but I think when I turned the car on earlier I heard them. I have it cooling down right now getting ready to dump it. Should I change out the thermostat while I dump? Also do I need to drain from the block when i do the flush or is that not an essential?

[jgregg]

I personally would try and establish if the fans are coming on before anything. usually if your fans are not working you will heat up at a stand still. when the car is moving there is enough air flowing threw the rad that you should not get hot. most likely you need a thermostat, that is assuming that your rad is not leaking or rad cap is not broken and there is no leaks from a misc hose.
you will need to trouble shoot a little before anyone will truley be able to help you.

[MrRline2010]

Fans are working at idle it will run all the way up. Overflow bottle also fills up nearly to the top when it's slightly under max at cool. I think it's the head gasket i'm going to try and compression test later this week.

[MrRline2010]

Only thing that confuses me is the oil isn't milky so i'm not sure what to think

[Rufus]

Ya it shouldn't push water unless it was getting pressurized. Mine started out only doing it on the freeway under boost, then it did it out of boost, then at idle.. and just got worse.

Here is an example of how it happens with your exact motor.

http://i42.tinypic.com/xdyt83.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/15rfbis.jpg

Now here is a replacement gasket...

http://i40.tinypic.com/280l65k.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/240y6p4.jpg

[Rufus]

Only thing that confuses me is the oil isn't milky so i'm not sure what to think

You can hit a water jacket without hitting an oil galley. Look at the gasket...

I never had milky oil whatsoever...

[rudsone]

maybe the thermostat...lets hope its not the head gasket.

[Rufus]

Ya, I'd hope as well but his hoses heat up and it's pushing coolant. How do you get it to push coolant when the thermostat isn't open? Checking PSI should help.

[MrRline2010]

my buddy has a brand new thermostat from when he had his em2 were changing that in the am. That will decide what my next step will be

[Rufus]

I'm doubting it, here's why: lets assume rather that pressurizing the system, the fluid in the radiator was boiling over. In order to reach that temp, water from the car would have to be making its was into the radiator. Kinda hard with a closed thermostat. We know the pump isn't leaking, so the only other thing I can think of, if we assume it's not the HG, is that water isn't flowing. The thermostat could be opening but the radiator is clogged, for example. I think testing the pressure in the cylinders is an easy check, especially now that it's overheating at idle.

I can help guide you on the process if it ends up being the HG. You'd be suprised how easy it is, as long as you have tools. If you want I can swing this radiator over too but tonight is beer night and tomorrow I have my son.

[MrRline2010]

ok well this morning I dumped the old coolant and put in the new. I also changed the thermostat.

I let it idle and ran around 2k at some points in my garage, it never overheated. i took it for a drive around ran it around 60-80 mph range for about 10 miles straight. It never overheated like yesterday, but the overflow bottle is filling up. I'm going to go do a compression test and see if I can't figure out the problem.

[Rufus]

*Any liquid-cooled car engine has a small device called the thermostat that sits between the engine and the radiator. The thermostat in most cars is about 2 inches (5 cm) in diameter. Its job is to block the flow of coolant to the radiator until the engine has warmed up. When the engine is cold, no coolant flows through the engine. Once the engine reaches its operating temperature (generally about 200 degrees F, 95 degrees C), the thermostat opens. By letting the engine warm up as quickly as possible, the thermostat reduces engine wear, deposits and emissions.

If you ever have the chance to test one, a thermostat is an amazing thing to watch because what they do seems impossible. You can put one in a pot of boiling water on the stove. As it heats up, its valve opens about an inch, apparently by magic! If you'd like to try this yourself, go to a car parts store and buy one for a couple of bucks.

The secret of the thermostat lies in the small cylinder located on the engine-side of the device. This cylinder is filled with a wax that begins to melt at perhaps 180 degrees F (different thermostats open at different temperatures, but 180 F/82 C is a common temperature). A rod connected to the valve presses into this wax. When the wax melts, it expands significantly and pushes the rod out of the cylinder, opening the valve. If you have read How Thermometers Work and done the experiment with the bottle and the straw, you have seen the same process in action. The wax happens to expand a good bit more because it is changing from a solid to a liquid in addition to expanding from the heat.

This same technique is used in automatic openers for greenhouse vents and skylights. See this page for an example. In these devices, the wax melts at a lower temperature.

.

Doesn't look that hot in your hands man. You can tell if it's open by the hoses.

Awaiting compression test

[MrRline2010]

compression test done. I did at 5 and then 6 clicks and let it set

1-160-170 , 2 160-165, 3 150-160, 4 160-165

[Rufus]

I read online that manual says 135, so that looks good.

[MrRline2010]

Ok Dallis and Josh. I changed the radiator cap and ran the car twice with the cap open with the heat on to get out any air bubbles. each time about 15 minutes. Followed up by a short drive at 60-90 mph average. The car doesn't heat up over half now, but the overflow bottle still comes up although it was less than the first time before dump this morning. It's still nearing the top. Should I try running this until I see the problem at this point? I know rufus you suggested maybe another radiator, or should I try just taking this down to ttm tomorrow and hoping josh can find something that i'm missing?

[sniperscout]

i would try that old radiator of mine that dallis has. it doesnt have many miles on it at all. It was a warranty replacement 10-15k before i swapped. I had similar issues at one point and it ended up being junk in my radiator. I tried flushing it many times but in the end I had to replace the radiator.

as far as bleeding it i would take a 20 oz soda bottle duct tape the mouth and put it into the radiator fill opening using it as a funnel and raise the water level by adding more coolant. I never actually bled the d17 but my k24 took 30-40 mins to bleed all the way

[MrRline2010]

well tomorrow i planned on taking it to ttm to have that leak test done. that should answer what my problem is. hey dallis if it ends up being the radiator could you drop it at ttm for a fee of course. also thank you too for the help so far.

[MrRline2010]

last night I left it at home with the reservoir cap off. I came home this morning and it was back down to normal level. I ran it this morning hit operating temperature. New thermostat works good, and the fans are working fine. I ran the car about 15 miles no signs of it over heating. I have it in my garage and it's been running for about an additional 15 minutes with no problems. The reservoir is about 2 inches over max just a little bit. I think I just needed to get the rest of the air out or something?

[sniperscout]

well hopefully that was it. but dont get your hopes up yet since it started out as an intermittent problem

[Rufus]

Ya if it pushes coolant you'll eventually push enough out that the car won't be able to stay cool.... Just hope it's not July and you're sitting in rush hour traffic on the freeway. That experience is why I'm no longer turboed....

I can drop off the radiator if you need to try it out, but if it doesn't help just find a way to swing it back to me. With nearly 200k miles worth of fluid running though mine I like having a backup.

[jgregg]

if your in the east valley we can perform a leak down on it. I know my way around these cars my wife has a 03 civic ex. if your in the phoenix area I would recommend Josh at TTM.
Jesse

[MrRline2010]

ran it tonight to work fluid level goes up just a tad above max but doesnt push like before. im going to take it for an hour long drive this weekend to see if i have problems again

[Rufus]

Take coolant with you.

[MrRline2010]

Take coolant with you.

Had it in the trunk ever since this happened.

[MrRline2010]

Happened again today. Took it for a 40 mile run to test it out. It stayed cool till I got off the freeway. Temp went up and resivoir was almost full again. I was running the air which seemed to make it raise somewhat. I didn't run the air home and it stayed at normal temp. Turned it on my garage and it started to raise again.

[sniperscout]

try the radiator....exactly what mine was doing

[Rufus]

Come get it f00

[MrRline2010]

actually that guy with the radiator is coming to phoenix this weekend I think i'll pick that up and try to swap it out this weekend. I only wanna do this once if I have to not swap out the radiator twice

[Rufus]

Honestly that aluminum one is a killer deal

[MrRline2010]

low post count and no way to test makes me nervious

[Rufus]

Hell just take this one, I'll survive

[MrRline2010]

when I install the new radiator will I need a vaccum pump like I used for my condenser when I replaced it? Also so am I basically seeing everyone at this points thinks it's my radiator?

[sniperscout]

no you dont need a vaccum pump just have to bleed it again

[Rufus]

Just elevate the front of the car and let it run until the bubbles are gone.

[MrRline2010]

picked it up this morning thanks dallis, and wow just my luck. The radiator doesn't have ports for the transmission fluid o.0 I reflushed my old one sitting 35 minutes so far at idle. Still bubbling about every 10 seconds. I have the heat on full blast. Temp guage is normal. Car still hasn't kicked the fans on yet or opened the thermostat.

1 hour- coolant still bubbling a lot with radiator cap open. The level went down and I put a little more in. This may have been from when the thermostat kicked in? Still running no temperature problems so far, but the fan hasn't turned on once. I've had it sitting idle for the majority of the time.

1 hour and a half now- no fans, idling it between 1-2k lots of little bubbles coming up. Overflow still the same. Coolant level dropping a little bit. Still seeing some steam come from coolant

9 miles into a trip. Overflow is full again
30 miles into a trip First overheat happens. Shut the car off for 10 seconds Car goes back down to normal

[MrRline2010]

Is there a sensor for the fan. Seems like this is not turning on now?

[Rufus]

Do you have an auto?

[MrRline2010]

Do you have an auto?

Yeah I have an auto. Anywho got more info now. Fan kicks in at 210 thermostat kicks in at 180 both are working, flushed again today and burped the bubbles out of the system. Still over heating at about 30 miles. I'm trying a new thermostat sensor tommarrow morning. I was trying to find a leak down tester, but that' seems impossible at this point. I was also suggested to try a 15 lb radiator cap to see if it's a pressure issue with the one I have now. I think i'm going to bypass this suggestion since I already bought another oem cap. I also was told to try nanotechnology coolant additive. I guess it's like a sealant incase I have a crack in a water jacket or something. Other than this i'm stumped. I'll try this in the am and if not off to ttm and hopefully i'll get some answers monday. Btw rufus i'll arrange once my cars running good again to get your radiator back. Btw nice beamer.

[sniperscout]

thermostat sensor? whats that? and 210 for the fans? that seems really high. so you are using a new radiator cap? isnt a leak down test performed with a compression tester? should be easy to find one of those.

[Rufus]

Sensor on top of the mani just above the themostat. I'd do a leakdown after

[sniperscout]

the ect (engine coolant temp) sensor

[MrRline2010]

thermostat sensor? whats that? and 210 for the fans? that seems really high. so you are using a new radiator cap? isnt a leak down test performed with a compression tester? should be easy to find one of those.

tested it yesterday with a probe in the radiator 210 is when the fans turn on and 180 for the new thermostat to kick in. I am using a new radiator cap i bought from autozone, but i haven't tried switching to a larger pressure cap like what was suggested. Also I asked the same thing, but the compression tester I rented from autozone, doesn't test what a leak down does apparently

Sensor on top of the mani just above the themostat. I'd do a leakdown after

i'm thinking with the fans kicking on at 210 it might be the sensor so i'm changing that first

[MrRline2010]

new ect sensor put it and the fans now kick on at 180 the same as the thermostat. I took car for a 9 mile drive and the coolant overflow is full at 15 today it overheated. I'm thinking about picking up a larger psi thermostat cap than what you use for oem. I think my buddy says if the overflow doesn't fill after changing it than it would be my head gasket

[sniperscout]

you shouldnt be overheating because of the cap if it is oem specs. you dont have anything done to the motor that would generate that much more heat than factory. I wouldnt waste your money on it.

your water pump is good?
i would have a radiator shop flow test your radiator. a flush doesnt always work...from my experiences normally it doesnt at all. I still think it is your radiator

[MrRline2010]

you shouldnt be overheating because of the cap if it is oem specs. you dont have anything done to the motor that would generate that much more heat than factory. I wouldnt waste your money on it.

your water pump is good?
i would have a radiator shop flow test your radiator. a flush doesnt always work...from my experiences normally it doesnt at all. I still think it is your radiator

the only purpose of the cap would be to check the head and see if it's something with the head. I'll know tommorrow once I take this to ttm what it is

btw why would you think it's the radiator at this point. I mean if the overheater was clogged wouldn't I have problems draining it too?

[Rufus]

It's not of question of it being completely stopped up, it's how effectively is fluid moving through it.

[MrRline2010]

any way to test this at home? i'm taking it to a shop in the am

[Rufus]

Negative

[MrRline2010]

its head gasket did the leak down this morning. the radiator gurggles when we did it on the 3 cylnder the same one that was150-155 on compression test its down till thursday

[sniperscout]

cool glad to to hear

[MrRline2010]

cool glad to to hear

glad to hear it's down? j/k hey phil that axle you never got back to me on? Can i still pick it up?

[sniperscout]

ah shit im an jackass i forgot...ill let my dad know your comin to get it...send me a text tomorrow to remind me to call him

im glad that you isolated your problem

[MrRline2010]

ah shit im an jackass i forgot...ill let my dad know your comin to get it...send me a text tomorrow to remind me to call him

im glad that you isolated your problem

10-4 thanks and ok ill text you tommarrow, but like I said cars out till thursday at the latest so I wont be able to pick it up till after then

[sniperscout]

thats fine

[MrRline2010]

on a more stupid question would I be able to port and polish the head without going with something like k pro?

[sniperscout]

sure you just wont see much of a gain

[MrRline2010]

sure you just wont see much of a gain

ok then I won't waste another thought on it

[Rufus]

There was a head on craigslist I think that was already done, but he's right, you wouldn't see a gain.

So when does the teardown begin?

[MrRline2010]

parts should of been ordered yesterday and tear down today. Hopefully tommarrow or thursday i'll have it back

[Rufus]

Who's doing the work?