Before You Shoot for Penus, Consider the Risks
 

Very interesting article I read a few months back, and with recent banter I've noticed I figured I'd post it here.

Good artical... so does that make you or anyone else shoot diffrent now. From the little bit I have talked to you it seems like you just want to take pics.

great article. shooting for a 6 pack and a McDonalds hamburger is pointless. there are a select few people here that have the ability to produce a quality product that should be paid for.

Actually, I'm pretty much tired of shooting for free. I have a decent body of work built up, I don't need to keep spending thousands of dollars to make pretty pictures for people without getting a return. I have almost $5k in my camera bag.

Last month I made a decent piece of my income from taking pictures. A few months ago, I made $300 a day shooting some portraits and had a ton of fun. I actually did that gig twice. The second time I made $400 in a day.

That's not to say that I won't shoot for free any more. It just means that I'll be much more selective about what I shoot for free.

I have some work that I haven't even posted on AZHT because honestly, this site hasn't done a whole lot for me in terms of generating work or income. Shout out to all the folks who've let me shoot their cars and try new stuff. Thanks B-UNIT for coming out and standing in a hot ass parking garage for my take some experimental shots that didn't end up looking that great!

Not really.

If someone says "Hey shoot my car and I will take you to dinner"

They are not thinking a "pro" is going to charge dinner.

Shooting for dinner/lunch/six pack/ride in car does not hurt the "pro".

I see their point about shooting for vastly reduced rate, and how that hurts the "pro" photographer, however I feel this can go both ways.

My opinion on the matter really isn't valid, I am not a pro by any stretch, yet I get paid just as much if not more for most of my photo work then a "pro."

Your opinion is perfectly valid. If you're providing photographs, then you have a reason to have an opinion on this. I'm not a "pro," but I do earn a little money from photography.

I really don't think that a cheap dinner should be the going rate. If it's a friend, sure, but otherwise, I feel that there should be some fair compensation. And if you don't feel that you're good enough to charge, just shoot for free.

all of this money talk makes me feel even more broke than I am...

I won't even take my camera out of my bag for less than $50. Too much time involved in post and the hours involved in driving and the shoot itself. Unless of course it's a close buddy then I'm ok with whatever.

the other thing is.. it leads down a slippery slope... if people keep torpedoing (sp? lol) the market, then eventually no one will be able to make money doing this.

I mean, shooting for a magazine would be great, but now why have anyone that can produce quality shots take them... just take advantage of someone and get that shit for free.

Sadly, photographers are letting this happen by saying.. "welp, look at all the exposure i'll get, and hopefully they'll pay me next time". No, they're not going to pay you next time because they know you're a sucker and that you'll continue breaking your back for free.

This. I usually think Justin is a ballsack, but we agree on this one.

I'm new and by all means I don't expect myself to get paid for my shoots for someone else, but the small comp is nice. I have 2 clients I have to shoot there senior pictures in a few months and I told the 2 girls if them come alright I won't charge you, if they come out really good than ill charge you something.

Eventually I'd like to get paid in some aspect for photography but that is far away from me, for now I just have fun and put my name out there and help out friends and what not.

That rant was asinine. He compared photography to heart surgery.... professionals to armatures/beginners and is obviously upset that the industry is diluted to the point where my grandfather can take decent enough photos to not warrant the ridiculous charges photographers feel entitled to. There is no changing this; it will only get worse, get over it.

I think you all lack perspective here… especially, Justin.

I understand the “want” in the “getting paid” aspect of this whole gig. I love money as much as the next guy, trust me. However, the feeling that you are entitled to paid appearances because you “meter” and “process” differently or have expensive equipment is ridiculous. Justin, for one, you have a 1200 dollar camera with the worlds shittiest lens! To make matters worse its your only lens, you probably have nothing to compensate for poor lighting aside from camera adjustment factors, and you above all else don’t have a name in the industry…. Why should I or anyone else feel the “want” to pay for what you offer? You’re kind of an elitist dick, with little to no professional equipment…. You should be happy that anyone wants you to shoot anything at all. Hours of pre/post processing are not going to garner you the results that would warrant 75/hr…. Have you not noticed that the pictures you are producing are worse now then when you had the Sony stuff you loved to talk down about? Seriously man, perspective… get some.

Look, the point is simple…. If this is “your business” you should be fishing elsewhere, AZHT is not a great money generator for any photographer. So, Justin… get a Website, join other forums, pass out fliers, send emails do something to gain a better footing in the industry and stop complaining about the lack of payment or undercutting Here. If you were truly the photographer you think you are none of these factors would come into play anyhow. Fact of the matter is, you aren’t as good as you think regardless of your “techniques”. In fact the results people get from you are easily obtainable for free from Me, Marin, Paul, Seth, etc. etc… emphasis on the "for free". Get a small business loan, take some classes, get better equipment and set yourself apart… until then stop complaining and over all else stop thinking you are in anyway superior to any of us… you just aren’t. Paul, believe it or not makes more money than anyone here doing photography because his approach doesn’t include AZHT or its target industry.

Take an entrepreneurship class at a community college and gain further insight and creative marketing ideas, become a better photographer, get better equipment, stop sucking as a person. In the end getting the money you want should not be an issue, even if I am offering free service. And please stop getting so upset with me about the “free(ness)” of my services or any other persons… I didn’t get into this for money, fame, popularity or any other motivation aside from wanting to document the progress of my home build…. I just ended up enjoying it so much that I have pursued it further and will continue to do so as a distant 3rd favorite hobby. This isn’t a competition for me, I don’t care who likes my photos, I never expect to get paid, I don’t expect accolades or awards, and I sure as hell am not looking to make this a career. Oh, the joys of a free enterprise driven society….

A quick summation of the above:

You all need to re-assess your perspective and your function within this hobby driven industry.

I keed I keed

:word:

the equipment argument is null and void. people here have full frame pro bodies with a full line of L glass and are extremely talented and you're stating that they should shoot for free as well.

secondly, you have only seen one shoot that I did with this camera. everything else was event coverage in which you can do nothing special with. The VW was the first thing I shot with the new camera and it was back focusing.

I'm also extremely positive that you, seth, or paul can not shoot automotive photography as well as others here. marin could though... I actually think Marin is quite good.

Why do you think I made the switch to Nikon? For image quality, plain and simple. the funny thing is, you'll get the D7000 and your pics will all still be the same. Pics of you, standing next to a wall with a cute little emo face on.

Why not differentiate between who's a good automotive photographer, and who sucks by making automotive photography the next contest? We can call in a couple magazine shooters to do the judging. I know you can have Sean K look at the site, and I can have Orlando Ech check it out and give us his input. hell, i might even be able to get a few of Orlandos contacts to stop by and give their input.

down?

I'm down for a automotive shoot for next contest. I think I take decent pictures.

I know its a argument between you guys. But I'm just saying.

everyone is welcome

Why? I have no interest in auto photography.... I’m not competing with you or anyone else here. Just stating that you have neither right nor the ability to act the way you do and talk the way you talk. The amount of attention your flickr page as well as your picture posting on here gets is a great example of what Im talking about…. No one cares for your work at all with very few exceptions. I have in fact spoken to a few notable photogs and members of this forum about you and "your body of work" and trust me... I don’t think this approach would favor you as much as you’d think. But hey, if you want to be “AZHT's premier auto photographer"… the title is yours, mate. I’m sure no one here cares but hey… you’re the man, man.

I wanted to leave this alone at... you charge, and everyone else is free. But you continue to make it seem as if we care as much as you do when in reality we are just sick of you. Period. You chose the wrong people to have an intellectual argument with.... there is nothing you can say, no contest you can set up, no other photographer you can provide as reference that will change my mind about you and your work. The only person that can change that is you… and you have proven time and time again that you are of the anti evolving/adapting sort. So my faith in you changing any time soon is minimal to say the least.

Sorry, I'm totally not "down" bro, I have nothing to prove in this fight.


I seriously hope Paul leaves this thread alone... I think it is important for your potential customers to see this. Cause its about to get really, really good.

what potential customers? anyone here that mentions having a shoot done is directly told not to pay for it. which professionals have you spoken with? id gladly talk with them myself.

I know I'm welcome to participate in the contests.
Its already good to me. I see both your points. And I have to agree with you kyle. Even though I would like to get paid for doing a shoot, for me right now its all as a hobby and how I can get better

Why would I throw someone under the bus like that? I dont respect you at all... there is no motivation or satisfaction I would get from you validating my inquiries. And Im sure you talk with them on a daily/semi daily basis as it stands anyway.

yeah nvm, i don't want a camera anymore.

you silly d00ds act like 6 year old fucking kids with your wrestling DOLLS.

aww come on.. name drop for me.

or have there been no such conversations?

Right. It's a hobby driven industry that very very very few ever make more than beans doing. Have fun with it, and try to expand your horizons. Limiting youself and your exposure by charging a per hour fee wont help advance you in any way at this point.

And dont get me wrong.... I understand why he "wants" money... just not why its "warranted". ya hurd?

Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. If they want to chime in and to be known they can make that decision, its not up to me. I am quite sure they are monitoring this page.

you'll eventually get to a point where you understand ISO, Aperture, Shutter Speed and composition. Once you get passed that, you'll need to acquire more equipment to continue learning. Or you can continue shooting natural day light and pay to upgrade software (which, if you have a normal desktop computer, you'll need to upgrade your hardware as well).

Like maybe a lighting set up, or a more capable camera body/lenses, or even a rig setup.

I can see why he wants money too. I want money too, just like everyone else. (Didn't you say that... "I like money just like the next guy"). And if I can make a few bucks or get a lunch out of my effort more power to me. but I'm not looking for money for every picture I take. I know its just not going to happen. Its fun for me.

Absolutely.

I'm looking into getting other lenses but for my budget and what I'm shooting right now I don't need a better bigger body camera. I love my camera, and the lenses I'm looking into are going to help me with getting better too.

But if someone offers to pay me for a shoot that I think could be potentially worth something I might consider letting them pay me. But until that day comes I'm not stressed about making money off a hobby. I collect hot wheels and I have about 2,500. I got into hot wheels cause I love miniature things. Look at my gf... She's 5ft. That's besides the point. It wasn't until recently that I started to get into it religiously where I have to have every car they made in 2010 (which I'm about 12 away from having them all) but all in all I didn't get into that hobby for money, nor will I look for money to be made in this hobby, eventually I'd like to get paid. But I'm learning its a highly unlikely situation.